Staying Alive S02E06: Expanding Indigenous Journalism in Broadcasting SPEAKERS Winston Sih, Melissa Ridgen Winston Sih Recent years have been a time of reckoning in so many ways. Long overdue conversations in our workplaces, about gender inequalities, race. And of course in journalism, it's also been a time to reconcile a dark past in this country. A dark past that is rooted in hurt and suffering. There's also an opportunity to recognize, honour and foster stronger, more representative stories in Indigenous communities across Canada and to create a necessary dialogue. Indigenous journalists offer lived experiences and perspectives that allow people from coast to coast to coast understand the difficult realities experienced for so long and by better understanding history, we create room for even stronger stories and deeper relations. Now, it's not easy, but it's so important to foster Indigenous voices, not only in the voices that share the stories in our broadcasts, but also in the kinds of stories we tell to viewers and listeners, and that takes trust, time and nuance. I'm Winston Sih. This week on Staying Alive, we talk about reporting in Indigenous communities. We know it's not just about telling more diverse stories, but it's about telling better, stronger stories. My next guest is Melissa Ridgen. She was most recently a host and producer for APTN and APTN National News and is now the network managing editor for Global News, focusing on amplifying Indigenous voices, drive investigative and enterprise storytelling for First Nations and Inuit peoples for Global National, The New Reality, and globalnews.ca, Melissa joins us now from Winnipeg, Manitoba. Melissa, welcome to the show! Melissa Ridgen Hi, Winston! Nice to be here. Winston Sih Thanks so much for coming on. I want to start by setting the scene; you spent many years of your career at APTN. Can you speak a little bit about the work you did there and the importance of creating a strong platform for Indigenous voices on television? Melissa Ridgen I was at APTN for 13 years. I actually started as a researcher when they got this brand new show started in 2009, called APTN Investigates. And as a journalist, I'd been working for 13 years at that point, and always had wanted to do more than just the daily news. I wanted to get into the investigative work. I was a print reporter my entire career and thought this would be amazing to be ground level of something that had not been done; investigative, Indigenous focused journalism. And I think within a couple of months, got roped into doing on camera stuff, and fronting these stories, which I always thought I would never be a TV person. And you know, now 13 years later here I am. But it was incredible. It was just an incredible opportunity to get in and be doing those half hour investigative pieces for so long. And then made the switch over to daily news as a host/producer, I would still, you know, do the occasional story investigative stuff, heavy lifting sort of things for our online. Winston Sih Now, when we think about reporting in Indigenous communities, of course, it takes nuance and resources. And of course, we know many media organizations might not necessarily be staffed or resourced properly for that as well. Why do you think media organizations for so long were maybe hesitant to tell some of these stories? Do you think there was a hesitancy? And is it because of a lack of education? Understanding? Resourcing? What do you think it is? Melissa Ridgen You've nailed it. It's all of those things. So I was in mainstream before I was at APTN. I worked in four provinces and newspapers, there was a hesitancy to get in to cover some of the stories. Indigenous people would be contacting newsrooms saying, "hey, this is happening, you should come cover it." And most of the time, we wouldn't. And I think it's a combination. One, this doesn't lend itself to a quick turnaround today. Two, there's just a fundamental lack of why this is an issue or why this is happening. And it's just too messy to kind of get our heads around, I think. The pages turned a little bit I would say — could say the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's work, or I think it was amplified again, the discovery of the graves. Now there's this realization, I suppose, of Canadians, in general. And then the news media. There's this new interest in like, what are the stories that are happening? Or what are the issues? And how can we get in and tell them better? And that's requiring a lot of heavy lifting on the backs of journalists who don't know that history because we were never taught it in school. If you didn't live it, you don't know. Winston Sih And when you cover these stories, where do you find that you have adequate support? And where do you find there’s still room to better resource journalists to tell better stories? What do you think is missing? Melissa Ridgen I can only speak for myself at Global. I don't lack the resources, which is incredible. This has been a corporate priority, of course, at Global, to do better at telling these stories. They realize that this is underrepresented, misunderstood and they wanted to change that. Of course, there's a lot of people who don't know the issues. They're happy that you do know the issues. They want you to bring these to the table and say why this is important, how to tell the story. Our audience at APTN has that baseline foundational knowledge. So your jump off point to telling the story is much different at APTN than it would be for a broader mainstream audience like we have at Global. These stories do need to be taken to a broader audience. These aren't just stories for Indigenous people. We all live here on this land, we're all sharing this land. And if you're here, you need to know what's going on. You need to know why it matters and how it happened. And then we can all be working together like how we move forward on this. And I think that's the path to reconciliation that a lot of media outlets are hoping to be on. And I'm pretty happy that Global has done it really well. It's new, it's early, but we're certainly on the right path. Winston Sih Absolutely. And I think it's really interesting, you make the distinction that there's a difference between covering Indigenous stories for mainstream network news, versus APTN, which of course, like you said, the audience would have a baseline understanding, captured interest already to learn more, because they've tuned into APTN. When Global approached you to take on this new role, can you speak a little bit about the approach that they came to you with? What were you charged with leading? Melissa Ridgen So I had been approached by somebody who was like, "we know that we're not doing the best we could do. We want to do better. We need help with doing better. You over at APTN, you guys have got it all figured out, right? Because you've been doing it for a long time. We need somebody to do what they want to do, which is knowing what the issues are, understanding what they are, and communicating them to our audience. Can you come and help?" I've been doing it at APTN for 13 years and I felt compelled to kind of take next level of "Okay, we're telling the stories to ourselves. We now have to be telling our stories to others." Because like I said, we're all in this together. And Global is committed to doing that. I mean, this is corporate reconciliation in action: "come tell us how we can be doing these stories better." Happy to do so. It's a lot of heavy lifting, right? A lot of people don't have this history, foundational knowledge. So there's the heavy lifting in that regard, but also, there's a realization that there are so many issues and so many stories that are not being told, how do we possibly get to all of them? There's a commitment to do it right across the country. and we're seeing it happen in a meaningful way where you look at it, it's like "This is exactly how it's supposed to be done." Indigenous people look at it, they're happy with how it's told. The public is looking going, "Oh, this is interesting. I didn't know that." because it's being told well. So, I'm happy with the path that we're on and how quickly we got on it. Winston Sih I look at things also from a realistic point of view as well. To tell these stories, it also requires a level of education. And it takes work on the journalists’ part to change their way of thinking, of how they approach the story and how they approach a community to get the story. And it's especially difficult in an environment like daily news. Because, yes, the reality is you are racing against a clock and you have a deadline to get your stories in by but a lot of these stories require relationship and nurturing. And you have to pull these stories out with a lot of care. What are some strategies that you have worked on with other journalists when it comes to telling some of these stories? And what are some of the strategies that everyday journalists can put into their work in their arsenal as they approach reporting in Indigenous communities? Melissa Ridgen It would depend on the story. It depends on the community, it depends on the circumstances, depends on the individual, right? But this is why it's imperative for media outlets to have Indigenous people in the newsroom. So you have somebody to go and bounce these things off of, hey, here's the story that we heard is happening. How do we approach it? Is the story this or is the story this and you don't have those conversations with people who took a Native studies class in university. This is a lived experience. It's valuable to have that in your newsroom to be used as a sounding board. But also, I would point to anybody who is wanting to be a journalist or currently is a journalist. Duncan McCue has just recently put out an incredible book. It's like a "how to cover Indigenous communities and issues", like 101. It's called Decolonizing Journalism. It's — everybody should read it! So there's that but since I've started at Global, we're also doing an Indigenous style guide that'll be part of our journalistic principles. This will be a section in there about how to approach these stories because sometimes, you assume that people have this this baseline knowledge, and you don't. You know, some journalists think if you interview an Indigenous person, you should give them tobacco. Like there's an expectation. That's not the case. I mean, that's usually what you would do for an elder who's sharing a teaching, for example. If you're going to a press conference with a bunch of chiefs, nobody expects you to go up with a bundle of tobacco for each of those people. So it's the combination of all of these things, you know, putting something pen to paper, so there's something that people can refer to as a guide, and then also having those people to bounce things off of in the newsroom. Winston Sih That's so great. And having those tangible practices is really what's going to make such an instant difference in how your journalists will go out into the community and strengthen those relations with Indigenous communities as well. Now, when I think of diversity and inclusion in broadcast, especially many of my personal experiences as a racialized person, they often come off as — of course — performative. What would you say is the difference between inclusivity being performative and it being meaningful? And how do you channel that in the work you do now at Global? Melissa Ridgen You can hire as many diversity hires as you want. If you're not listening to them, and you were still making them bring their experience into your non diverse, dare I say, white lens, and everything has to be through that funnel, what's the point of having that diversity? If you want diversity, and you want to be doing it meaningfully, you're listening to them. They're allowed to take the lead. Their voices are heard, their ideas are heard, you support them with action and resources to do the lifting. I have heard of newsrooms, where they have a lot of boxes checked, and those people are still not heard and not respected. They're used for their sources. They're used for ideas, but everything still has to go into that sausage factory of this colonial lens. So what's the point? Other than you've checked boxes. Winston Sih So it requires a shift in how you approach those stories and how you tell those stories too. Think about the different types of stories that one would tell at an organization like Global. This would apply to CTV or the CBC, you've got your 92nd packages, which would be video based. You've got your online stories, that would be more tech space. You might have a photo gallery in there, and then you've got your longer form pieces that would live on something like the New Reality or you can mention W5 for example, on CTV. How do you decide where stories go? Where and is it a multi platform approach? Put some of it online, some of it on a daily broadcast, and others would go on a more long form platform? Melissa Ridgen It's a total mess, right? I mean, some stories are quite local. So it could be a long form, but local living on, you know, Global Winnipeg's website. This is different from APTN. I mean, APTN was "we have TV, we have online, we don't have radio." A lot of times there would be something on APTN Investigates, that wouldn't necessarily get a treatment for APTN News, a little bit disjointed. Keeping in mind, APTN is a micro company compared to many newsrooms, I mean, I think there's 40 people working across the country. That's a newsroom in a lot of cities. With Global, I certainly love to see the ability to take something that's worthy and blow it into everywhere. Your affiliates and all your locals will have a version, your radio has a version, online has a version, TNR has a version, Global National has a version. Like we have the ability to take these big stories, really amplify them, which is incredible. I mean, certainly, where I come from, from APTN, we're just this little kind of voice, oftentimes talking amongst ourselves in the Indigenous community. And now, to feel like you have this massive platform and megaphone. I've been doing this for 26 years, and I gotta tell you, it feels pretty good. Winston Sih Yeah, yeah. And there's an importance in having a platform like APTN for people to have that space to have those discussions even within a community because often those conversations don't get disseminated properly within legacy or mainstream media, like a Global or CTV or CBC. Melissa Ridgen Well, there's a familiarity too, right? Like how we tell our stories to each other is different than how we tell it to a mainstream media. There's room for both and both are incredibly valuable, you know, mainstream has a duty and a APTN does as well, you know, and I certainly have enjoyed immensely both. There's such value in both and it's using different muscles now than what I was using APTN for sure. I've got to tell the story to people who have potentially have no idea of the history or the background. So you've got to come at it from a completely different way, but you still have the same time to tell it right? A two minute package seems very airy. If you're telling a story for APTN because you don't have to get into the background of it. Most people just have that foundational knowledge Ah, now you've got a crown history lesson. And I know that context also into that two minutes, so you definitely use different muscles, I will say that. Winston Sih And do you find that as you do more of this work within a mainstream network that as you do more of it, the audience will build a better understanding. So you don't have to do as much background? Or do you think that that is work that you just continually have to do, assuming that there are viewers that don't have that understanding? Melissa Ridgen Well, I mean, it's certainly the hope that the more you're telling these stories, the less explaining you have to do about the newest development within that. I'll use for an example, child welfare. I've been covering child apprehension at APTN for a long time, because it primarily preys on Indigenous parents and families. When I come to Global, we started covering some of these stories. Those things had been covered, but we're kind of covering them in a more fulsome way. Not all of the kids that are apprehended need to be apprehended and that is shocking to most Canadians. Most Canadians are "Oh, I knew the child welfare system was a disaster. But, you know, what are you going to do? These kids have to be taken because they're neglected or abused.” Telling more of the stories where you question that, as you should be questioning that. Are all of those 10s of 1000s of kids in care in this country, they all need to be there? Let's unpack that. This industry isn't necessarily operating how we have all been led to believe it operates, in this happy, wholesome, heroic way. And I'm hoping there will just be people understanding like, there's some kids that need to be in care, and that's an issue. But there's also this issue of are we taking kids for job creation for job security, I can give you stories that would suggest that that is in fact happening. Winston Sih Now, I want to ask also, what are some of the nuances many journalists miss the mark on when it comes to engaging and reporting in and around Indigenous communities, and perhaps what do they also do well? Melissa Ridgen It's a tough question. I read some stories and like, oh, I wouldn't have worded it like that. Because there was a cringe factor to it. Sometimes that it seems a little too white guilty, if you know what I mean, like you've gone kind of a little too far. So it's striking that balance where the viewer doesn't feel like you're cramming something down their throat, and from this wokester perspective. Sso you're treated seriously by your audience, who was like, Oh, that was a well told story. I don't feel like you were trying to be an activist. And then there's sometimes like I said, there's that cringy of "our Indigenous people." I don't see that as often anymore, but I used to see that quite often. Like "Indigenous people feel X, Y, and Z," it's like for one, that sounds possessive. Nobody's interested in being referred to as belonging to the people of Canada, or the government of Canada. So let's start with that. Winston Sih When we look at the shooting styles as well, you know, there's so much power in images and the videos that we shoot. We know when covering Indigenous communities, often the videos that we get, the images can be disturbing, can be difficult to watch. There is a nuance in how those images are used as well, so that we're not sensationalizing something that's really painful and difficult. But we're also showing the reality of people's lived experiences. Melissa Ridgen Well, a lot of that is explaining right? I don't ever want a community that I've gone to, I don't want them to be happy to see me leave. I don't want somebody to feel like I've used them, victimized them, stolen their story, twisted their story. And sometimes, we don't realize how the person or the community is going to take what we've put together. So I always try to look for, like, "what are they going to think if they see this, or they hear this?" And to explain it like, "so just so you know, I'm going to you know, I have to be honest in saying that this was a drug fueled rampage or whatever," right? So you're gonna see and hear that these things take time. And that's the challenge, because you're always up against a deadline clock. And one of the things that I love that Duncan McCue had put in his Decolonizing Journalism book was, first things first, you could not be running on the daily news time clock that we all operate on in this industry. You have to realize that it doesn't always fit when you're dealing with stories in these communities or with First Nations, Inuit or Métis people. You just have to realize that and to put more thought and care in because this is a community that's been underrepresented for a long time. When you swoop in to cover bad news, think about that, right? The trauma that has already existed in all of these communities through colonization, is it worth it to you and your news organization to take the time to do it right? Winston Sih Right and you don't want to be seen as the reporter that just drops into a community to get the soundbite or to get the images that you need and then turn around and leave. You have to nurture that relationship. And that's something that I've learned in a lot of my time researching how to properly cover within Indigenous communities. Melissa Ridgen Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's people who are not Indigenous journalists who are doing incredibly well. Neetu Garcha from Global National — every time I see her go into a community or interview an Indigenous person or take on, you know, a massive topic like you know, the graves or the Pope's apologies. This is a young, incredible journalist who's a settler, first generation Canadian, and she just hits it out of the park. This just gives me so much hope that it's not as much of an uphill battle as maybe we like to think it is because there's people like her who are just hitting it out of the park. And good! Like learn from this. There's-we can all do better. Winston Sih I want to end on a positive note, what kind of work are you hoping to see in the media space when it comes to embracing and properly telling me stories? What are you hoping to see other newsrooms embrace? We know the work that you're doing within Global. What kind of work do you think should be done to show that growth as we embrace and tell better stories? Melissa Ridgen I think it's not just the who, what, when, where, but really, I'd love to see the stories that answer the why. The W that's kind of the hardest. I'd love to see the stories done so well that people don't look at them with a, "ugh, here's another story about these Natives. It's always, everybody's just doing these stories about Natives now. It's all about them. We're all supposed to feel guilty. I don't want the takeaway to be that I want people to be interested in the stories and to learn something from them. So the onus isn't necessarily on the audience for that. It's how we tell the stories. If we're telling stories, as they should be told, it lessens the room that exists for people to have a negative takeaway from seeing or hearing or reading that story. Winston Sih Absolutely, we know that this is so important. And as we see more of these stories in local news, we need to have more of these real discussions, but also at the same time practical, tangible tips that it seems your organization is well underway and creating so that journalists know how to better approach this. So Melissa, I just want to thank you for your time and for the important work that you're doing within Global but also how you contribute in the Canadian journalism community as well. Melissa Ridgen Aww, well you're too kind and I'm honored to be here talking about this with you. I mean, it's something that I just want more journalists to be thinking of. Future journalists, current journalists, just don't be afraid. There's so many incredible stories to be out there to tell. Don't let your fear or your lack of understanding stop you from doing it. You've got to find people who can help you tell these stories. Don't be afraid to ask questions that will help you get these issues out there. tell these stories just gotta be brave and surround yourself with helpful people and more Indigenous journalists. Winston Sih Melissa Ridgen is a network managing editor for Global News. Next week, we speak about regulatory relations and broadcasting. The CRTC can be intimidating, but they are a necessary entity to ensure the success of our telecommunications system. How do we foster a strong relationship with them while establishing frameworks to ensure the success of Canadian media? That's next on Staying Alive. I'm Winston Sih. Thanks again for tuning in.