Adrian Ma 0:17 Hello there and welcome to another episode of working media. This is the podcast where Professional Journalists offer their insight and advice on having careers in the news media industry. I'm your host Adrian Ma. This podcast is presented in partnership with J-Source the English language portal for the Canadian journalism project. On this episode, we speak with Eternity Martis . She is a senior editor at daily extra in Toronto, a major Canadian LGBT focused online news site. And her writing has also appeared in numerous places including the Huffington Post, Vice the walrus salon, honestly, just too many publications to list she is prolific to say the least. And what she is best known for is reading about race relations, women's issues, social justice, often drawn from her own personal experiences both inspiring and painful. I really enjoyed our chat. She puts herself out there in a way that other writers don't. And she talked to me about the thrills and consequences of speaking her mind. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Eternity Martis. Eternity Martis Hello, Eternity Martis 1:25 hello. Adrian Ma 1:25 Thanks so much for joining us on the show and making time for us because I know right now, time for you is at a premium. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've had a pretty crazy past few months of some major changes. So what's new with you? Eternity Martis 1:39 Yeah, so you're not wrong. Few things have happened in the last couple of months. So my role as associate editor at extra has now changed to senior editor. And I'm doing a lot of supervising, which is exciting and challenging and frightening. But it's awesome. And I have acquired a two book deal with McClelland and Stewart, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. So I'll be writing books, which is all I've kind of wanted to do really my whole life. So got that happening. And on a non work related, exciting news thing. I guess I was on jury duty for seven weeks, and I learned the system is even worse than I thought it was. Oh, Adrian Ma 2:18 I was gonna say to I loved your name, eternity. Fantastic name. Also, because someone in this great big world of ours is walking around with the name for a limited time only. Eternity Martis 2:34 Well, possibly, like anything can happen. I was named after the perfume actually. Adrian Ma 2:39 Calvin Klein. Yeah. Okay, Eternity Martis 2:40 So mom used to wear it all the time. And she no longer wears it. But when I tell people that they're so disappointed because they think they're like, oh, like I thought it was a deeper like, your mom was a hippie? Like, no, it was just the first few. That's it now stuck with it? Adrian Ma 2:52 Well, but I you know, that is one hell of an end to be stuck with. Because I think you've really built a unique and powerful and interesting brand. And you know, I think your name is definitely part of it. Your path in journalism has been really fascinating in that you've carved out a space for yourself and you found a voice and and kind of at a fairly young age relative, I think to a lot of other professionals. When did you realize that putting yourself out there reading about race relations, women's issues, marginalized communities? When did you realize that that was the right direction for you? Eternity Martis 3:25 So it? Well, it all kind of happened at once. I grew up fairly sheltered. My mom's side, the family's from Pakistan. So I grew up with, you know, brown family and very strict on, you know, grades and you know, doing well and getting a job. And I figured, well, you know, I love to write I've been writing since I was nine. I love everything about books, the smell of books, just the words, and it wasn't really a path that anyone had taken in our family. And so they said, Well, why don't you do, you know, be a nurse. And I'm like, Well, I can't do math to get even into nursing school. But I'll do social work. And it was a second kind of option for me. And so I went to Western to do my undergrad there. And I was wholly unfulfilled. I did the first year of it. And I was kind of just skating by and I'm somebody who really does not like to settle and I felt like I was settling. Because the school had a women's studies program that I was super interested in. I took a first year course. And one day I was talking to my uncle. And I was like, you know yeah, I'm I guess I'll be a social worker and he's like, you should be in front of a camera. Like why are you in social work? And I don't want to be in front of a camera but I wanted to write and I said you know what, screw it I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna drop this. So I dropped social work, got into Women's Studies decided that I would use that degree to inform my writing so learn theory, I practice black limit, you know, research black feminist thought on my own, started writing and in the meantime at Western because Western in London, Ontario is notoriously racist. I had encountered a lot of Men that I had in back in Scarborough where I grew up. And so I started writing by race and the way that I was interpreted and perceived among white men and just white people in general. And I'm like, there's something here between, you know, the Women's Studies and between the race issues and the gender issues. And I really want to talk about that. Because when I talk to my black girlfriends on campus, we're all experiencing the same thing, but nobody is writing about it. And so I went through undergrad writing, I wrote my first piece at 19 called Why don't sleep with white guys, which was my experience with the practice and the theory, I use bell hooks, what about hooks this piece, I wrote it for a friend's blog. And it got picked up by the Huffington Post, went to bed woke up, and it had gone viral. So that was kind of my entry into this. And I said, Well, maybe there's something here. If people can see themselves in this, and I put myself out here, you know, maybe there's something to this. And that was my first start. And it was not a good start. It, I guess I was very young. And I didn't realize that. Talking about sex, when your parents didn't even really know you're having sex, talk about sex talking about all these guys that you've kind of hooked up with or have known. I didn't anticipate that it would go viral. And then I had to have those conversations with my family. But they had already seen it at that point. And that was the hardest part about putting myself out there. Not the trolls who you know, they never commented on my work. They commented on me, they call me a slut. And they slept shame, which is fine. But it was mostly my family I was very worried about and that was a turning point for me. Yeah, my grandfather, who I'm terrified of, and I love very much, he had wanted to read the piece. And I kept saying, oh, like, you know, like, I'll, I'll get it to you. I'll get it to you. And eventually, you found it on his own. And we're in a movie theater, and the movie was about to start and he like leaned over and whispered, like, I read your article. And I was like, Oh, my God, what's gonna happen? And he was like, I loved it. Adrian Ma 7:03 Wow. Eternity Martis 7:04 Yeah. And we had never talking about, like, ever spoken about sex before. My grandfather, my mom gave me books to read. Sex was never a thing. And that was wonderful. Because as people started to read it, he actually shared it with people at work. He asked them what they thought about it. My elementary school teachers, my friends, my employers had all read that piece. And the response was wonderful. And I'm like, somehow have humanized sex in a way that is now part of my identity. But people liked it for the writing. And not because I had said, well, like, you know, have sex with white guys. And this is why I won't do it anymore. But let you know, while you really hit on something that was important. Adrian Ma 7:42 Yeah. And so, you know, this, this podcast is aimed for aspiring writers, aspiring journalists, and I think many of whom do want to share their personal experiences do want to explore deeper social issues through their own personal narratives. But, you know, may not realize the the consequences of really putting yourself out there, like, like you did. And so you had this interesting experience where, you know, you got some negative comments, you got a lot of positive reinforcement. What did you actually kind of decide that, hey, this is something that I think I can bring to society with, what's my take? And and something that I want to do I want to be that vulnerable? Eternity Martis 8:24 Yeah, so I think it was actually that piece. The response I got was huge. I think there were like, 12,000 likes strangers, in my, in my inbox on Facebook, on Twitter, just telling me how much it meant to them. And I figured, well, you know, if me, using my experience that people can relate to using that to contextualize a larger issue over, you know, racism, and the exotic vacation of black women by white men have done something right here. And, you know, I'm willing to, I'm willing to do that. And so it really, I have an issue with this kind of stuff. It's my own issue, because I write about things. And I feel very strongly like, I have a story. It's my story I want to share with people and use that to contextualize a greater social issue. But I don't actually realize how much of myself I'm putting out there until later on until it's published. And until people say, No, that was very brave of you. And I've never actually thought of what I have been doing is brave. What I do feels very necessary to me, you know, if it don't write about it, I can't sleep or you know, I can't think until it's out. And so it's been, you know, that was a, that was the moment. And as I've gotten a bit older and you know, used to the industry, I've had editors say well, we want to hear from you. So like share your experience. So along the way I've been a bit reluctant, but to know that you know, I'm a woman of color and their editors paying me for my opinion, like you know, say more say more. Because in j school, they don't really tell you to say more. They want you to write an objective story. And then I realized, like, I think something's here, I think the experience that I have is somewhat universal for people. And I'm good at it. And it brings people together. And people tell me, you know, I relate to this, I feel less alone. And I'm like, if I can do it, well, then I'm going to do it. And I've, I've, you know, my, the books that I'm writing are about myself, all my writings about myself in some aspect or the other. And I feel like it helps people connect, especially in this political climate, you feel less alone? Adrian Ma 10:30 Have there been moments where the negativity, though was was overwhelming where it got to you? Eternity Martis 10:36 Yeah, I think I think it has. One thing that I've tried really hard to do is I understand that personal essay writing and not so much now. But at the time when I was writing, is not really seen as journalism. And so I tried really, really hard to use my experience as a starting off point. And, you know, using facts and using data, and I found that people were very critical still. And a lot of it was mainly from people who did not, who were not of color, and would say like, Well, I haven't experienced this, so this can't be true. So trying to break down my credibility was a huge thing. on the basis that, like they hadn't experienced it, which is not really how it works. That really got to me as well as the comments, I think people are really awful. They don't necessarily comment on the content of work, but they comment on you. And you know, they comment on what you look like. And, you know, my face was on white supremacist forums, and they had dredged up like, information about where I went to school. And that kind of stuff really got to me because you, you realize that you're a woman, you're a person of color with an opinion, and people are out to get you. But once I learned that, I think I was okay, I now I see the comments. And I know that it's really not about my work. But I have my mom to thank for that. Because my mom does not go on the internet. She doesn't know how to turn on a computer. And she bought herself a tablet around the time that I had written Why don't sleep with white guys. And somehow she found the comments section, and put on her little like Sarah Palin glasses, and started reading these nasty comments to me. And I was like, you know, stop, because I can't handle it. I was in bed for two weeks with it with gastritis. So I had all this terrible pain in my stomach, couldn't get out of bed, I cry for two weeks. And then once that was done, it was done. My Shell has hardened tremendously since then, it kind of just rolls off right now. Adrian Ma 12:22 And so let's talk about your book, which congratulations again, one achievement and really meaningful because you said you've been wanting to be a published author since you were a little kid. Yes. So your first book, they said this would be fun. It's going to be published by McClelland and Stewart, who is then they in the title. Eternity Martis 12:41 So they in a nutshell, the book is really about me and my experience, being a woman of color, being a student of color, and all white Canadian campus, and being sheltered and being from Scarborough where it's very multicultural, and the first person, my family to go to university, the only image I had of university was what I had seen in movies. So white kids have, you know, epic keggers doing like steel or whatever they're called those like, they lift up your feet over the kickstand. kickstand kicks in Yeah, you know, that kind of stuff, frat parties, I wanted all of it because I had never partied, I didn't have friends in school, I was a loser. And I'm like, Okay, well, I'll do that. And when I told people I was going to Western everybody, they said, well, like, you're gonna have so much fun, it's a party school, it's gonna be great, you're gonna, you know, come out of your shell. But also there seem to be this like, underlying whisper network of, but it's also very racist. And it never went further than that, just that black people didn't go to London, but you're gonna have fun because it's the university. And then when I got there, I went to, you know, have the do the keggers and do the nightlife and have the student life. And none of that ended up turning out as I had hoped, because that kind of experience is not made for someone like me. So the racism that you face student life when nobody wants to sit beside you, because you're the only black kid in class, and some people in your class have never even seen a black person, you know, encountering blackface at Halloween parties. So all these things that I did not interpret. And those people who said, yes, this would be fun, and this is the best time of your life. This is your university experience, you're going to remember this, also not realizing that well, that's made for a certain type of person. And that's not me, Adrian Ma 14:24 is this gonna be a collection of newer essays you're working on or a compilation of some of your previous work. Eternity Martis 14:30 It's a little bit it's a tiny bit of previous work. And then mostly newer work. It's gone through many drafts. I've actually been working on this book since the moment I stepped foot in London. So it's been since 2010. It started as like a diary than a private blog that a play and it started all personal, but right now it's more a little bit of personal and then like a greater commentary and what's going on in Canada on campuses with students right now. So it's I'm reworking it. drafts are hard. I am, I'm on I'd say I'm on the fifth or sixth draft, but it's not a real draft, because I keep going back and revising. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever had to write. For sure. Adrian Ma 15:12 Well, and it's fascinating, because, you know, you start this in 2010. And in a lot of ways, it seems like it's very prescient because the environment that we're in in 2018 seems to require a book like this, and a lot of ways. Did you ever kind of see things, you know, taking shape the way they did? I mean, 2018 now 2010? You know, when you first started writing, I suppose, has your writing changed and evolved, given how it seems like society's changed in the vault? Eternity Martis 15:40 Yeah, well, when I started writing it at school, university, it felt like there was this underlying bubble that something was about to burst. You know, there was a Trayvon Martin shooting, Black Lives Matter to two months after I had graduated Black Lives Matter kind of launched into global scene. So all this stuff was bubbling under the surface. What I didn't expect was to come out of school, because Western really broke me down, I was very depressed, I was happy to move back home. What I didn't expect was for what came after with the whole political climate, I thought it would get better, not worse. I used to write not with a sense of urgency, because I had to get the story out. But my sense of urgency has changed very much. I feel like the urgency is very political. Now. The way write is very deliberate. I'm looking for a certain audience. Yes, I'm speaking to people like me, but I'm also speaking to, to allies, to people who may, you know, to racists, to policymakers to decision makers. And I now feel that urgency is like, if I don't do this now, like somebody needs to put their voice out there, along with the other great voices that are out there. And I feel like it's one of the only ways writing as resistance, especially for people of color. And so putting it out there as kind of document the truth that's going on right now, because they can take everything away. But they can't take away books, they can burn books, but the words are still there, right. And so right now, it feels more pressing than ever to have a book like this come out. Adrian Ma 17:01 You talked about, you know, drafts are hard. They absolutely are. What I also imagine, though, and you've had experience, you know, you've developed your career, putting yourself out there like this in articles as an editor, but putting a book out there with your name on the cover, with every essay by you, based on your personal experiences that has got to feel that it's got to feel a bit heavy, I suppose. Am I wrong in that? Eternity Martis 17:28 No, you're very right. Like I said, all I've ever wanted was to have a book and be an author. And it's happening now. But I did not expect the stuff that came afterwards. So I didn't expect you know, to be like, Okay, I have my book deal, and then sit down and start writing, working on the draft, and then being frozen. Like I've got writer's block, I doubt myself and writing the book has been the hardest thing I've never, I've never really doubted myself like this when it comes to journalism and my work. But sitting down and hearing that voice is your failure, you can't write this, like they chose the wrong person. That stuff is very tricky. So that's hard. But it's also hard to write a book that's very different than an article or an essay, you're pouring your heart into a book. And in the books that I'm reading, there are people who are going to be affected by it. So it's preparing myself one for, you know, where this book goes, whether it you know, it does well, or it doesn't, preparing my family, for the kinds of things that come out of that book, because just by virtue of me writing about myself and writing about them, preparing for people to learn about my sex life, or, you know, realizing that I am, you know, I'm not the nicest person, I'm a nice person, but I'm also human, and I'm deeply flawed. So all these things that I'm not prepared for, that I have to now prepare myself for. is very, very tricky. I don't know if I'm gonna have any friends after this, I will have to see but it's, it's all that risk planning that you never think of. And it's it weighs really heavy on me. Adrian Ma 18:58 I'll be your friend. Eternity Martis 18:59 Okay, I'll take that. Thank you. Adrian Ma 19:03 I know because I am super, super keen on on reading this book. Speaking of just kind of of the process of it, I think a lot of listeners probably also have this dream I dreamt of being able to publish a book. So how did you eventually get this book deal making this transition from being a freelance writer reporter to having this two book deal? Eternity Martis 19:22 So it's, it's been a process, but I, I've always felt like, I've had goals. And when I was an elementary school aid made us do this exercise where you close your eyes and you think of the one thing that you want, and it was a book and since then I've been like, what are the steps I can take to get to that. So in the writing that I do is very deliberate. It's sending out a certain message is on a certain topic, and I've made myself the expert on that. So making yourself the expert and kind of owning owning your niche. And I think a lot of times young people who are interested in journalism are told Well, you know, it's not really good to have a nice because you can't write anything else. Or you get pigeonholed and they think you can't write anything else. And I've struggled a lot with that with, you know, people saying, well, you're going to get pigeonholed, you're gonna get blacklisted, no one in media is gonna want to hire you. You're not gonna be able to write anything else. And I kind of took that on said, Well, no, I can write everything. But this is what I choose. And really sticking by myself, and not selling myself out and selling myself short, has really helped because I've built my career on that. And I was right, I stay true. And you know, now more than ever, we're talking about race. And they need people who write about that stuff to be here. So I did that kept writing. And when I got to London, I said, there's something here. I don't know if it's a book, it's something but I'm going to write down everything bad that happens in London. And I started writing that stuff. And in the meantime, I started researching, like, you know, just how do you create a book? What's the process along the way, also, pro tip, if you can have a project, if you have a class, and I had a class that let us do a project on just about anything, I took a writing of a certificate in writing. So I did writing courses, and ended up writing my proposal in my creative writing class, and worked on it with a professor. It was a little bit towards, you know, my goal, but it was the start that I knew I could finish something. So I had that proposal sitting for a few years. I finished it in 2014. In the meantime, I read some books on writing proposals on how to publish a book I learned about the industry. When I went to J. school, I started networking. So where people were actually networking with like news journalists, I kind of tried to go into publishing a little bit more tried to go the magazine route, and made friends make connections. And actually, about a year ago, I met someone who was able to help me with a proposal, who was wonderful, and said, like, there's something here and you should continue this. So continued working on that had a manuscript ready. The one thing is, if you're looking to write a book and have it published, you should have something to show for it. So have a proposal, have some sample chapters, you don't have to have a manuscript done, but has something and I had all that. And this person said that they were interested, and they set me up with an agent, and it was all kind of history from there. And yeah, a, it happened very quickly, quickly and all and really didn't, because I've been working on it for so long. Adrian Ma 22:18 Well, and I think something you mentioned to me before was that you actually spent a bit of money on was it reading courses or writing for publishing? Eternity Martis 22:26 Oh, yes. One thing that is really important to me is investing in my career. And I always tell people, this, if you can go buy a pair of like, you know, like fancy boots, because they have a label on it, you can invest in your career. And so I you know, I'm an introvert, I hate network networking, but I'll pay my $100 and go to something I've never regretted it, I do that I sometimes go to conferences or talks, you don't have to pay money because I feel inspired by going to those things. I've actually spent some money on a course on how to write a proposal, I think I spent like $400 on that. And it went back and forth being like, I don't know, I bought the course refunded it and like come on, like if this is what I really want spend the money. So did that. I bought some books on writing a proposal, I studied those books, like I haven't since like undergrad, I had them highlighted and annotated and read them on the subway read them at lunchtime. And so I spent that money, because I knew it was going to pay off. But I think the hardest part is when you don't know if it's gonna pay off. Am I am I writing this book? Because it's gonna pay off? Or do I not know, like, what is the point of this? If I spent all this money, what if it doesn't pay off. And it's really cheesy. But I think really having faith in your idea and having faith that there is a place therefore it's necessary is so important. Because if you don't have that you'll quit. Adrian Ma 23:46 I really love that advice. I really do. The idea that you're not going to learn everything you need to learn in school, it's impossible, you're gonna have to bet on yourself. And if you know that on yourself, you know, nobody else will. I love the fact that you know, you're about to publish this book, you're making a dream happen. But this kind of idea that you know, you were already becoming a kind of well known writer in Canada, especially in this space. And yet you were still kind of humble enough to actually study on how to get a book deal. I really I really love that story. Yeah, Eternity Martis 24:16 I I'm a firm believer in always learning. I don't know everything. And I am so grateful for I think the great thing about journalism is that people lift each other up. Nobody ever leaves you in the dirt if you're if you've been in the industry, and someone comes in to help you and I've had that kind of help. So I'm humbled by that. And I'm humbled by the fact that this is a challenge. I know journalism, but I'm not the best at it. And journalism is very different than publishing, writing an essay or writing an article is very different than writing a book. So I had to go and study and I had to surrender to it really and just say like, you know what, I don't know everything. I am starting from scratch and I feel terrified and it feels like a lot of information but I need to do this to get to where I need to Be. Adrian Ma 25:01 And we're gonna continue paying it forward on this podcast because this is what we're all about. We're about paying it forward. So if you haven't, you have a chance to speak to this new generation of aspiring journalists. And I think many, many of them are people of color, who do want to put themselves out there who have something to say, the may have found themselves in a position where they're not supported by it, you know, personally or professionally. Or they're rightfully a bit nervous about the reaction that could cause I was wondering if you had any advice for these younger aspiring journalists who hope to reach that kind of level, or have that kind of platform as well. Eternity Martis 25:37 Yeah, it's really not cheesy. As I say, it's cheesy. But really, you have to believe in yourself, and you have to invest in yourself. And you have to believe really believe in what you are doing and why you're doing it. putting yourself out there is not easy. It's much easier to walk away from it than to, you know, be brave and be fearless. But there are people out there who have a very similar story to yours, who are you who also want to write and may look up to you, they just need that push, they need to see someone like them out there represented. So believing in your idea. And believing that it takes you somewhere it carries you. We're all just really people and I think we we tend to, you know, when we hear about people's personal lives, for example, we kind of freak out like, oh, like they do this, they do that. But when you put yourself out there, you start to normalize these things. So we can have these conversations. I can now talk about sex with my grandfather, which is weird, but it opens these possibilities that you never thought of. And along the way you only have you your your parents, your family may say you can't do it. Your friends may say you can't do it. Your partners may say you can't do it, but you need to hold on to yourself because it will take you much further you only have you put yourself out there and don't be afraid. Adrian Ma 26:52 Eternity Martis, thank you so much. Eternity Martis 26:54 Thank you. Thank you for having me. Adrian Ma 26:58 Once again, that was Eternity Martis, senior editor, ideally extra and soon to be published author. Well, that does it for us at the moment. The executive producer of working media is H.G. Watson. I'm Adrian ma Thank you for listening.