Adrian Ma 0:06 Hello, and welcome to another episode of working media. This is the podcast where we speak to professional journalists about their tips for surviving and thriving the news media industry. This podcast is produced in partnership with J-Source the English language portal of the Canadian journalism project. I'm your host, Adrian Ma. So this week, hundreds of 1000s of Canadian students returned to their college and university campuses. For many, it's both an exciting and extremely stressful time. With this in mind, we're bringing you a special episode that looks at a deceptively simple idea. Taking care of yourself. It may seem straightforward, but how many of us are struggling with this? On today's show, we're joined by two guests to talk about taking care of yourself as a journalist. H.G. Watson is the managing editor of J-Source. Ann Rauhala was a longtime reporter and editor at the Globe and Mail and the CBC and is now a journalism professor at Ryerson University. I gotta say, this was such an interesting, lively conversation. And I personally came away with a lot of great tips on staying balanced. Without further ado, this is working media. So I would like to welcome to the show, two special guests. H.G Watson, managing editor of J-Source and the executive producer of this very podcast, and Ann Rauhala form formerly of the Globe and Mail and the CBC, currently, professor at the Ryerson School of Journalism. Welcome. Nice to be here. H.G. Watson 1:27 Very nice to be here, longtime listener. Adrian Ma 1:31 So as of this week, classes are back in session at Ryerson, like so many other schools across the country. And this week to mark the return of students of the classroom. Jason has started a discussion thread on Twitter with a question. People working in the Canadian media industry, how do you take care of yourself? Sounds like a simple question, right? Well, given the robust response, it's a question that people in this industry seem really keen to discuss. There's a lot to unpack here. So question two, H.G. What inspired you to pose that question? H.G. Watson 2:02 Yeah, I, this has been something that's been interesting to me for a long time. Well, basically, since I've worked in this industry. You know, for myself, personally, I've struggled with anxiety for a long time, I, you know, have been going to therapy for like the last four years. And sometimes like balancing my mental health with this job is can be quite challenging. I've got a much better at it. But you know, as I sort of made more friends in the industry, and I was talking to people and going to these conferences, especially as the editor of J-Source, I do that a lot. I could just see that was saying that so many people wanted to talk about it's not necessarily has to do with what you your own mental health diagnosis is, it's just that this job is particularly very stressful. It would be even under the best of circumstances, because you're, there's, you're supposed to work long hours, sometimes you're working very odd hours, you're trying to hit these crazy deadlines, you then need to add on top of that. The fact that we also in Canada, we're in an industry that is in so much flux right now, there's people that aren't even sure if they're going to be able to get jobs, or they're working, contract after contract and side hustles. Like, you know, trying to cobble together this journalism career. A study just came out, I think, literally yesterday, saying that precarious employment is actually a huge mental health stressor. And that just ties into all this. So yeah, this is something I think that I, you know, I really wanted to bring up this idea of, like, how can we take care of ourselves, and I wanted to leave it really open when I asked that question, because that really means different things to different people, right. And I did sort of purposely not use the word self care, because I know that that term can be quite fraught, it's loaded, it's tied up in notions of privilege, and who gets to access things like self care. But at the same time, you know, in an industry that demands so much of you, I think it's like more important than ever that we think about, you know, what is it that we are doing to take care of ourselves, even if it's just basic stuff, like, you know, am I going out for a walk? am I eating properly? Am I drinking water instead of like a million cups of coffee a day. And again, I'm super guilty of this, just like an hour before this podcast, I was like, Oh, my God, I haven't eaten anything. And I ran across the street to get like a hummus and chips and such so that I was like, had the fuel to be able to do this. Adrian Ma 4:21 And with youryears of experience in the newsroom. And this idea, I think, an old school attitude that newsroom managers, journalists had this idea that only the strong are meant to survive that this is a cutthroat industry, and that if you can't hack it, then you can't hack it. Throughout your experience, did you have any memories or stories of situations where we're stressed and anxiety were just a really overbearing part of the work? Ann Rauhala 4:53 Absolutely. And it's funny because of course people were not hacking it. What they were do doing was hiding bottles of vodka in their top drawers or, you know, really suffering in some way, because they could not admit that what we were doing was difficult. Like, I find it very interesting that about 20 years ago, the doors started to open on this stuff. And, and not surprisingly, it opened on the issue of the damage done to people's psyches by covering war stories. The research started about 20 years ago, I know there are people who have done some of that research here at Ryerson. And it was almost as though we took the most macho part of journalism. And we could finally accept that maybe it was a little difficult. You know, I was a foreign editor of the globe, and I was sitting cozy and comfy in the newsroom in Toronto, but I was dealing with foreign correspondents. And I remember thinking one time, as I was on the phone with a correspondent, I'm not trained to do this, I, I'm being asked to be a social worker and a psychologist for someone who has been severely traumatized. And I'm not sure what to tell them. But having having said that, if there are all those factors that he already identified, I think we need to say we need to mention the big orange elephant in the room, that that journalists are also facing an unprecedented level of attacks by the President of the United States and closer to home by the new Premier of Ontario, who hasn't quite hasn't quite reached Trump like proportions yet. But that that little stunt that happened a couple of weeks ago, when his loyal staff started applauding loudly in order to drown out reporters questions, that's worrisome. What that is, is it's an existential attack. Right? Like, yes, it's stressful, and we don't, it's stressful and deadlines can be overwhelming. And we shouldn't solve our problems by eating too much drinking too much, or, you know, throwing out our shoulder when we play tennis. But there's another layer and it is very deep and very profound, because it cuts to the nature of who we are, like, why would you choose to be a journalist? Now, it's always been difficult, but it's more difficult. Now. When I teach some some of my classes, I often especially I teach a class of graduate students who are just coming in to our program. And I say how many of you here want to change the world? And they all laugh and put up their hands, they're here because they want to change the world. So that very, are very reason to exist, is being challenged and brutally insulted almost every day in mainstream discourse. So yeah, I think we should we should be looking. I What, what is she said about? Getting the amazing response that she got on her twitter feed totally coincides with my experience. We did with a colleague here at Ryerson. We we experimented with teaching journalism students how to meditate. And when I posted a few stories, a few items about it on social media. So many of my former students replied, either publicly or privately saying thank you for raising this conversation because we need to do something that led to my being invited to a national newsroom, to talk to them about our research, and to do a little bit of mindfulness meditation with them. And I've had inquiries from other places as well, Adrian Ma 9:16 if able to share a little what what has your research? What What have you found in your research so far that may be helpful to newsrooms and aspiring journalists? Ann Rauhala 9:25 Well, it's a very small sample. And it's a very small sample, but I will say, we, I was inspired to do this because I had practiced mindfulness meditation myself. I've been meditating on and off for about 20 years. But I saw a lot of suffering among young people that I knew people on campus, and the suffering was beginning to get to me, other people's suffering was beginning to become problematic. So I did um, I did a more intensive mindfulness course. Adrian Ma 9:59 So sorry. What What is mindfulness? I guess mindfulness meditation, good classes, Ann Rauhala 10:03 other types of Yeah, for those who so here. So here's the thing, I don't want to I don't want to sound like I'm proselytizing solely for mindfulness meditation, except it is a kind of meditation that that I'm familiar with. And that I know that works. And it has been shown to have benefits for all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons. Mindfulness is generally defined as paying very close attention to what's going on with you. In the present, without judgment, sounds, the thing about mindfulness meditation is it sounds really easy. But it can be damnably difficult to do, but it's paying attention. If you'll permit me, I'd like to address there's a lot of misunderstanding about mindfulness meditation, meditation in general, because people you know, you know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So people have a little knowledge about, say, Buddhism or meditation, and they hear the word acceptance. And they think, Oh, right, so this is just another way of numbing the pain or avoiding the issues? No, it doesn't mean that, that you are accepting injustice, or accepting the suffering you see as a journalist, or accepting the pain in your shoulder because you've been hunched over your keyboard. It means seeing things realistically, and learning about yourself and figuring out what's going on. I don't know if that if that does it justice. But that is about as close as I can get. And the acceptance thing, bugs me. Adrian Ma 12:01 What about it bugs you? Ann Rauhala 12:02 Well, it bugs, it bugs me that journalists generally pride themselves on their skepticism, so anything, so so anything that's a little different from the status quo, always attracts cynicism and skepticism. And so being a meditator is being mocked. When, when I our research was written about in a journal that a lot of journalists read, and I got a bristling verging on hostile letter from somebody who bitterly complained that we were, you know, wasting, essentially, she was implying we were wasting our time and energy on a frivolous activity when there were real things that journalism students should be doing. As though journalism students aren't doing all of those real things all the time and might need, you know, a few quiet moments with their own thoughts to figure out who they are and what the heck they're doing. Adrian Ma 13:12 Well, let me let me talk about that idea for a second. Because I think just just sort of speaking in a practical nature of these things, and I'd like to ask you both giving your own professional experiences and discussing things with your colleagues, but you know, a young journalist who may be getting their start in the newsroom, getting their foot to the door, and then they feel that pressure to perform well to take on everything they can do something that we tell them all the time, right? Oh, you know, try not to say no to things to try and say yes, be like a, you know, quote, unquote, go getter. But to kind of understand that, yes, sometimes I do need those quiet moments, and to be able to ask for those quiet moments. What happens when you encounter a manager or an editor, who you're not quite sure kind of sees things from that perspective? You know, is there a way that you would suggest approaching them or any ideas, anything in your experience? Or, Ann Rauhala 14:07 I would say, actually keep it to yourself, because you can learn a lot you can do a lot. It's not, it doesn't. Once you've had maybe one good introductory course, you can. You can benefit enormously from as little as five minutes a day. While you're sitting at home in your pajamas before you start your day. You don't have to advertise it. The funny thing about mindfulness meditation is it's a little bit like Fight Club, like first rule of mindfulness meditation is you aren't supposed to be talking about how great it is for you, or or proselytizing, both of which I'm doing right now. But, but the fact that the fact is there are enormous benefits and you don't really even need to share them. That's, that's what I like about it in the news, The room that I was invited to, there were a few people in the room who were who were already meditating. And I think partly they were there because they were able to sort of, in essence, come out of the closet and talk about, about the benefits that it that it brought to them. I there's still a lot of cynicism in newsrooms. So my advice really would be, why don't you look into it? You'd be surprised how useful it is. And don't I wouldn't necessarily mention it to the skeptic, but you might find people who are doing other things and similar similar kinds of things. H.G. Watson 15:44 I just wanted to add, like, I think I interpreted the question maybe a bit differently. But yeah, you don't, you don't have to disclose to a manager in any industry that you're in, that you're doing any kind of mental health practice, you can say that you're going to the doctor, or you're taking some time off. But I do think it's important for young journalists, like you said, they, and I'm guilty of this as well, you want to take on everything, you want to show that you can do all the reporting that you have what it takes. But that's just a recipe for burnout. And that's why I think it's really important that very early on and something I'd wish I'd learned earlier on was how to set boundaries better, whether that's like, you know, I'm just not going to look at my phone past six 7pm. Like, it really depends on your work situation. And what that is one of the things that we had in the thread when people talked about setting those boundaries. Like there's people that responded to me, they delete all the apps like email, Twitter, everything off their phone, as soon as Friday at 6pm. Comes they are like not engaging at all. And that's one way right? Because like, I try to, I try to do that as well. But I think that that's a really important part of this. Because there definitely is that impulse. And I think too, as journalists, if you're here, you enjoy news, right? You want to chase news, you probably find yourself doing it kind of as a fun thing to do as well. But that soon those boundaries can really blur. I think the other thing is to is really sort of listening to yourself in terms of where like, you know, and this is it takes a lifetime to figure it out, but where you're going to hit that burnout, when times those happen. Like, I always find that usually sometime in the middle of the summer is when like, okay, I really need to take like a break right now just because it's like, had six months of work behind me, you know, stuff with my job in particular tends to be quite busy in like, May, June. So that's usually around that I've gotten better at like recognizing those singles. But yeah, and sort of the other way that I took your question too, is, you know, if you have a manager that's asking too much of you as well, like if you're younger, so you're having trouble with that. Those are can be very hard discussions to have. But I think it is like, it is worth setting a boundary like you shouldn't be somebodies slave just because you want to make a good impression. Like you need to, like even if that's sort of saying like, I'm doing this tonight, I will not be available, like making sort of excuses of like, why you can't be available for certain things and are even like, you know, having that discussion. If it's an awkward discussion, if your workplace is unionized, maybe there's somebody who can be the go between if you have a mentor in your workplace. Again, that was something that was really emphasized in the Twitter responses I got, go to that mentor, ask for advice, like say, hey, you've worked in this newsroom for a long time. This editor is really writing me really hard. What do I do? Like I this is too much for me to handle. So using those kind of resources to sort of figure out ways to deal with it in a way that's healthy. And that's not gonna lead to either a blow up or burnout. Ann Rauhala 18:50 See, I would contend I agree with everything you said. But I would additionally contend that part of the difficulty about saying no, is that we become so overwhelmed by other people's expectations, that we can fail to distinguish between what we think is important, what is truly important for us, and what is important to somebody else. And I say that as somebody even even now, learning how to say no to the things that really aren't that important. Everyone needs to do that young journalists need to do that for sure. And one of the one of the beauties I I find about mindfulness meditation in particular, but it can happen if you're fishing, or knitting or just going for a long walk. But mindfulness meditation enables you to hear your own voice and to observe it. And it's that's to me so intimately related to what journalism is. we're observing all the time and drama Meaning. So if you develop, literally, they call it a practice, if you develop a practice, even, it's just five minutes a day of thinking of paying attention to your own thoughts, your own feelings, your own body sensations, you will become a lot clearer about what's worth doing and what's not worth doing. And instead of being conflicted and agitated, because your boss wants you to do this, but you know, x, you know, x is a better story and more important, and has more legs, than you are calm enough to talk to that boss and say, You know, I think x is a better story. And here are the reasons why. And if, if it's okay with you, I'd really prefer to spend my time on this. And let's see what happens with the story you want to do, maybe it'll develop or change. In other words, it sort of gets you down to a, sort of calmer, a calmer state. And this sounds like a simple observation. But to me, for me, it's the most profound observation that I've been able to make after a few years of, of meditating. What what meditation does is, enables to live enables me to live my life more closely. To the person, I actually intend to be, like, very few, nobody wants, nobody intends to have a tantrum, if they're asked to do one more story, and they were about to go out to dinner. But some of us might have a tantrum, if we have kind of got lost about what actually matters. You know, so I guess I'm, I agree entirely with all of the external, external activities that you're advocating. But I do think that taking care of the internal machinery of your thoughts and feelings, and body sensations has a amazing effect. You know, I used to be one of these people who took pride in the fact that I would forget to eat, I think, that tells you something about what the newsroom was like. And, and similarly, I landed up doing meditation event, basically, because I, I couldn't sleep, I had a schedule where I had busy days, two consecutive really busy days, and I couldn't sleep. I went to a meditation class, and I fell asleep on the gym floor at eight o'clock at night beside a snoring stranger. So I concluded then that maybe it was something that worked for me, you know, it works. It works for me, may not work for other people, but it has, H.G. Watson 22:59 I think it's like a, it's definitely a really important tool. I've tried using, I'm not really into, I realized that's not my thing. But I sort of get that same feeling when I'm on a treadmill, or when I'm doing like really intense working out. And that was very surprising thing for me to actually learn. It's something I only started really doing in the last year, year and a half. And before that, I'd been very late. I hate the gym. So boring. But then I, I forget why exactly. I think I just was like, oh god, I'm so out of shape. I gotta start going. But it was really incredible. Because it was like, you know, as soon as I got that 20 minutes on the treadmill, you really start just like, everything else kind of would go away. And I just be really thinking about like, okay, I want to hit this mileage, like, I want to hit this speed like, and then it was sort of setting other goals for myself that were really, you know, very physical and, you know, thinking about other other things other than like, you know, I've got this deadline, I'm worried about this story, like all these sort of other thoughts that really stress you out. But yeah, I guess I mean, for me, like I, the way that I view and I'm way that I got the responses to as well as threat is I think, like, mine, like mindfulness is one sort of thing in that toolbox. It can use like some people like they do it through exercise. I mean, I think to another, like important thing to add on that to that as well as I mean, you know, for some people, for some people, mindfulness is great and it works and having that kind of practice. But you know, if you have mental health issues that go beyond that, then there should be no shame in like, Alright, I'm also going to In addition, I'm going to see a therapist or I'm going to have a antidepressant prescription or you know, those things should be looked at as you know, you are taking care of yourself. Yeah, a weakness at all. Yeah, Ann Rauhala 24:41 in no way in no way. am I suggesting that, that it's an answer to all questions. In fact, I think what it is it is absolutely another tool. It happens to be non addictive, calorie free, and, and just sweat free, mostly sweat free and doesn't cost anything and you can do it at home and you pajamas. All you need is five minutes of peace and quiet. So, and and coincidentally paradigmatically, there is research showing that that mindfulness does help it. It's it's an additional tool, it can help people who merely want to get a good night's sleep. And it has the potential to to help people to be an additional resource for people with complex mental health issues. And everything in between. and there, there's there's research on that, that it makes it pretty clear. I couldn't help smiling and maybe when you were talking about exercise, because certainly exercises absolutely critical to me as well. I mean, I walked here today, because I was at the gym today, because it's really important as the whole roster of things that you can do to maintain your sense of well being. I kind of hate that phrase, well being, but it happens to happens to work, right. But when I hear you describe the benefits of being on the treadmill, I'm thinking, Yeah, true. But part of it is that you're just distracting yourself, You're distracting yourself with a different goal, which is can be very healing. But mindfulness would the thinking behind mindfulness is that you pay attention to those things. And find the time and the space to think about why. What so and so said to you, is still on your mind three days later, instead of To hell with so and so I didn't like what he said, I'm going to worry about whether I can go an extra five minutes on an uphill treadmill today. So I actually, I think both are essential. Not both are essential to many people. But I think there's something different in the same way, you know what mindfulness isn't, isn't going to increase your bone density or your cardiovascular health, right? Okay. But also cardiovascular activity isn't necessarily going to get the benefit to give you the benefits that sustained quiet, paying attention to your own thoughts, feelings and sensations will. Adrian Ma 27:44 As you my my biggest takeaway from going over the Twitter thread by Vijay Suarez was that, you know, I love the idea of talking about these approaches as tools. And what I came away with was that people need kind of two kinds of tools, one that helps them cope in the middle of being in a really stressful situation. And the other tool that helps them either almost in a in a preventative sense, or a kind of long term sense. Help them help them in that kind of capacity as well. And I think to your to your points. One of the best lessons I'm coming away with from from this discussion, is that you need to find for yourself the combination of tools that helps you when you're in the thick of it, and also when you're not quite but you know that tough times can come You know, any any given time. H.G. Watson 28:42 Yeah, I that's kind of the theme that I got for it too. And, yeah, I mean, again, I totally agree with everything you're saying. I don't know, for me personally, if I'd characterize my work, I feel like I may be explained it badly. Like I sort of get that feeling of like, paying attention to myself, through physical activity, I guess, is sort of what I was trying to get around with that. Yeah, Ann Rauhala 29:05 I've been there and done that. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. H.G. Watson 29:07 But like, yeah, I mean, I think the other thing, the other point that you made that I think is, is really good. Because again, there's, you know, there's access issues to get it, getting mental health services and, and all sorts of other issues of even like, can you afford a gym membership, which again, if you're precariously employed, that could actually be an issue. So I think like looking for those things like mindfulness that you can, you know, find guides for online. There's even apps like meditation apps and things like that, that are either cheap or free. That's a really good resource. I guess then, though, to me, the further question from that is, you know, that still puts the onus on, you know, the individual to be doing that, where we also, I think, sort of the next step in this conversation is at what point is it then that we need to look at what response Ability schools and newsrooms and all these different employers have in providing some sort of mental health supports, whether that be like, you know, a lot of places will have like a phone line, you can call if you've experienced trauma, but that's not necessarily the same thing as Yeah, right. Ann Rauhala 30:17 Well, I mean, I think we're seeing an opening. I agree. That's the next step, we're seeing an opening, we were surprised to read that we were, as far as anybody knew the only journalism school in North America, maybe the world to be even thinking about teaching meditation to journalism students, and make it part of journalism education. The interest from newsrooms suggested to me that there is, there is an opening, there is an opportunity for all kinds of reasons. One of them is that the conversation about mental health is different now. And I'm just amazed by how candid and Frank people, generally under about 40, are about mental health issues, that that is a huge opening to people, for people to talk about that and see a need is important. In the Ryerson School of Journalism, we have really started making it a priority because we see it as part of part of a package of resilience. And that phrase, resilience really works for people who are still a little squeamish about stigma, right? that this isn't one thing we know about human beings is that you can have two people with almost identical experiences. And some of them are so traumatized and shattered, and other people bounce back. Where does the bounce come from? That's the question. And we we talk about mental health, a lot in School of Journalism. And we have very much promoted a program called thrive Are you whose whole reason for being is to develop resilience. And I won't describe it in detail, because other people can describe it better. But it has five elements. And the central element is mindfulness. Interestingly, because it somehow helps you kind of access those, those other elements. Now I sound like some really seriously proselytizing. I don't, I don't even really, I don't even intend to as much as I've discovered something that just makes life so much easier. And I'm really eager that, that my students, and young people working in journalism, have the opportunity, or at least the curiosity to give it a try, it might not be the right time for them. I'll tell you because I resisted a lot. I resisted meditation for decades. And I had to be brought to it by insomnia and and other things that were going on in my personal life. My only, My only regret, actually is that I didn't start meditating sooner. when my kids were younger. I think I might have enjoyed having young kids in the house more. And the balancing of work and career which is no small stressor for women in newsrooms, right. It's it's enormous stressor. Yeah. H.G. Watson 33:36 I think, um, I did the Ryerson actually held a mindfulness workshop for staff last year that I attended. And something that came up. And then weirdly enough, came up in a CAJ panel that I also did by someone else, was this idea of comparing it to sports psychology, because if you are an athlete on any major sports team, you see a sports psychologist, it's considered part of their regime. And because they're also under very extraordinary pressure, and there's really no shame in it, they see it as like, you know, a way of improving their own performance. And as you said, There, I don't know if they'd use the word resiliency, but that's definitely how I view it. So I think that's what I would personally really like to see in journalism and in media is this idea of not of like, you know, we need this because we're also damaged and big anxious messes, but because we want to do our jobs the best we can and that includes taking care of our mental health. Ann Rauhala 34:33 I'm so glad you went in that direction, because I Yeah, I agree with you. But I, I see benefits that directly affect my capacity to think and read and write. I find my capacity to focus is better. Some people the real the deepest proponent of mindfulness meditation suggests that it enables you to tap into quite a reservoir of intelligence and insight that you didn't even really know that you had. I can say for sure. It, it makes me so much more creative on my feet. It just makes me so much faster to solve problems. I'm looking over at Adrian, because he teaches and man, you know, when you're in a classroom in front of a bunch of interested intelligence students, and your mind wanders, that's a disaster. You need to bring it back. Definitely. Adrian Ma 35:41 I've struggled to bring my mind back. Ann Rauhala 35:45 And a similar thing that I found in when I worked in broadcast is sometimes you're interviewing somebody, you're so focused on the experience. And you have no idea what they just said, because your mind has wandered. That's not good journalism. Right? Yeah. If you can bring your mind back to the present moment. That's the skill. It's just like lifting weights or anything else. If you can bring your mind back to the, to where you are and what you're doing right now. You're there. And journalists need to be there, not fretting about the person who yelled at them yesterday, not worrying about how they're going to explain their unexpected absence to their boss, but they need to be right here right now. Right? Adrian Ma 36:26 Well, on that note, and is do you do have a quick exercise we could maybe do that could help us be better journalists, after listening to this episode, we can try this and and we will, we will have clearer minds and bring our heads back. Ann Rauhala 36:45 Wow. Sorry, I wasn't expecting to conduct a mindfulness. But I can get, I can give you a little bit of a little bit of advice. Thank you. Find. So find a comfortable place with no distractions. And set, set your phone, set a timer on your phone for five minutes. And then put the phone away facedown. And turn all your devices off. And sit quietly with your eyes open in a comfortable position. And begin to focus on your breathing. slowly and deeply. You breathe in and out. And then just listen to what's going on in your mind. If you notice thoughts coming up, and you definitely will consider them as thoughts. Realize that you're thinking and then let the thoughts evaporate, and go back to thinking about your breathing. Breathing in and out. slowly and deeply. You might notice that your foot is itchy or your elbow is sore. Notice the elbow, notice the foot. Think about living inside your body. Consider notice living inside your body. And then bring your attention back to your breathing. Breathing slowly in and out. Maybe not now, but soon. You might sense an emotion. You might feel impatient or irritable. recognize that this is a feeling. Then bring your attention back to breathing slowly and deeply in and out When you hear the sound of the bell, take a deep breath in a deep breath out and open your eyes. Adrian Ma 40:35 I gotta say, I haven't had five minutes all day to myself. And that felt good. Ann Rauhala 40:44 Yeah, I wasn't expecting that. That was okay. I just kind of like it's not an official meditation or anything. But I've been meditating enough that I know what I'm what I'm going for. And I was trying to I was trying to get out the thing that I think is useful is that, that you, when you sit there, you think, Oh, this is a thought, Oh, this is a feeling Oh, thoughts are just thoughts. Feelings are just feelings. They are external. To me. You know, so many of us live in our heads, especially journalists, because what we're doing is analyzing, we're collecting, we're noticing we're observing, we're analyzing, synthesizing, that's what we do. And it's very, it's very hard to stop doing it. I mean, at the very least, if you don't hate meditation, you want to give it a try. And you decide you don't like it, at the very least what you will learn is something about your thoughts. You'll learn where your thought, given a moment of peace, where do your thoughts go? And they can end up going and very surprising. Where do your feelings go? They can go in surprising. Places. Right? up. So hey, if you want me to do a real one, sometime, like, you know, that was just a quick Adrian Ma 42:02 taste, right? Yeah. teaser H.G, where can we see this thread on j source that got this whole? H.G. Watson 42:07 So it just was posted today. But when this podcast comes out, it will be three days ago. But yeah, I posted some of the responses i got i didn't post every single one. I think I probably got close to 150 responses. Wow. So that would have been a very long post of just tweets. But the thread is still you'll be able to access the thread from that post if you want to read more of them. And yeah, I thought one of the most amazing things to me was also just the variety of journalists who did respond to that post. So there's people, you know, some people that have like 1000s and 1000s of followers that responded to it, and some people from small town papers. So I think it just really shows you the scope of how many people care about this and are thinking about it. And you know what? Nobody even said in a funny way, drinking until I posted it today. Some I was pretty impressed. It was all very serious answers. Adrian Ma 43:05 Well, maybe the culture is changing. Yeah. All right. I want to thank you so much for appearing on the show. H.G. Watson 43:10 Thank you. Ann Rauhala 43:11 Thank you My pleasure. Adrian Ma 43:13 Once again, that was j source managing editor H.G. Watson and Ann Rauhala, journalism professor at Ryerson University. Special thanks to J-Source and Angela Glover for helping us with the studio space. The technical producer of this show is Nicole de Donato. Welcome back from LA Nicole. We missed you. Executive producer is H.G. Watson. Thanks for listening. Until next time,