Unknown Speaker 0:06 Well Hello there and welcome to another episode of working media podcast where Professional Journalists offer insight and advice on working in the media industry. I'm your host Adrian Ma. I'm a journalism professor at Ryerson University in Toronto. This podcast is produced in partnership with J source the English language portal for the Canadian journalism project. On today's episode, I speak to Lindsay Michael Lindsay is a self described audio nerd who has worked in public radio for more than a decade in a variety of roles. But you would know her best as the co host of CBC radio's podcast playlist along with Matt Galloway. In this episode, Lindsay talks about how she got her start at a very young age in journalism, and what she learned about the importance of networking, I had a really great time chatting with her at the CBC building in Toronto. Without further ado, this is Lindsay Michael on working media. I'm here right now at the CBC building in Toronto with Lindsay Michael, producer and co host of CBC radio's podcast playlist, the show that serves as a kind of Whitman sampler for the most compelling, innovative and provocative audio storytelling available today. Do you like that analogy? Unknown Speaker 1:14 Yeah, I think that's pretty, pretty good. pretty accurate, Unknown Speaker 1:16 as opposed to Ben's like whether or not you actually like chocolate like, are you a fan? Unknown Speaker 1:20 I love chocolate, right? We actually our Valentine's Day episode, we used an image of a chocolate box with all of these different podcast logos in it. So it's very apt description, Unknown Speaker 1:31 because your show could also be considered a bureau flight, if that's your thing. Unknown Speaker 1:35 I think I like that better. Unknown Speaker 1:38 All right, well, okay. Before we get into today's interview, I'd like to make a disclosure. You and I have been pretty good friends for a while. Yes. Okay. It's kind of a fact of life that if you work in the Canadian journalism industry, it's a small world. And if you work in it long enough, you'll you'll have worked with many people and you'll have a lot of friends or even I guess frenemies. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 1:56 We're not frenemies. No, we're Unknown Speaker 1:57 not frenemies, though. No, we're friends. At least I hope. So anyways, for people who may not know you, as well as I do. Lindsey, Michael, where are you from? And how did you end up here? Unknown Speaker 2:07 Okay, so I'm from Prince Edward Island. I grew up in Charlottetown. I it's like, really twisty. I guess for everybody. Probably, it was a twisty road that landed me at the CBC. My very first job. Well, was at the CBC. Basically, I was at a science fair, I think in grade five or six. Unknown Speaker 2:29 So how old are you at this time? Unknown Speaker 2:30 I don't know. Probably like 12. Yeah, it was 12. I was young. I was a kid. And the CBC came because it's Charlottetown. And, you know, Charlottetown has a popular, like, P has a population of about 150,000 people or 130,000. So they report on things like science fair. So they came to the science fair, they're interviewing the kids. And one of the people who still works there now interviewed me at the time. And then the next day, I got a phone call. And he said, Would you be interested in being our cub reporter for CBC Radio? Charlottetown? Unknown Speaker 3:03 Amazing. Unknown Speaker 3:04 And I said, Yeah, I mean, I guess I didn't know what that was. And so it was back in the day when you actually still use tape. So they'd give me one of these giant tape recorders. And I carry it to school and I go into the school yard and I'd ask questions like, what do you want for Christmas? Or like, what books are you reading right now? And then they would i would give the tape back to them. And I'd edit and play it on the air. Yeah. And so that was my first job. Unknown Speaker 3:26 What was it like the first time you heard one of your pieces on the radio? Unknown Speaker 3:30 It was crazy. It was just I think I don't remember. I don't remember hearing because it was live. Right. It was the afternoon show. But I remember being in studio, and just loving it. And just like I wasn't nervous. I wasn't. I mean, now I probably get more nervous than I did. Then. I was too young to know better. But it was it just felt right. Like it felt fun. It felt like what I wanted to do, although at the time. It's funny. I didn't realize that that was what I wanted to do. But it's like it kind of because for a while I will the rest of story is I went on to be an opera singer for a while. Yeah. But radio kind of was always a weird theme throughout my life. Unknown Speaker 4:09 Yeah. And I came back to it. You You seem to always I've always loved audio, you know, music. Yeah. Sonic kind of storytelling, that that kind of stuff. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And if only all getting all jobs are that easy, I suppose when you're starting out. Unknown Speaker 4:25 I know. It's not like I just can't believe that that happened. And you know, what's funny is I didn't even realize that that's how I got into CBC until maybe, like six years ago, I didn't remember then that I didn't connect it to what I'm doing now. It was just an another weird anecdote. Unknown Speaker 4:40 He ended up working in different departments over the years. Radio and news. How did you end up working on podcast playlist. Unknown Speaker 4:47 It was funny, I was sort of I was in Montreal for a long time. And then I moved to Toronto and I was just kind of doing kind of short contracts with different shows. And one of the short contracts I just kind of happened to be available. And they were looking to do a summer show about podcasts. And so they said, Hey, could you just do kind of a summer show podcast? And so I started working on it, and kind of working with the managers on it. And we came up with this concept. But basically there, it originally started out quite simple. It's like, oh, we'll just like play some podcasts on the radio. But then we're like, yeah, and there's gonna be a host, maybe there's two hosts, and maybe we play like six podcasts, maybe it's an hour. It's just one of those things. We're just kept growing and growing until it became this crazy, you know, big project that it is now because it takes a lot of work, because we also licensed everything we play. So it's like a complicated process. But it it got more and more complicated until it became what it is. Unknown Speaker 5:42 Well, is this interesting? Because speaking of whether you go one host or two hosts, from what I understand you weren't originally supposed to be on air. No, I wasn't on air. Okay, so how did how did you become an accidental CBC radio personality? Unknown Speaker 5:54 You know, yeah, it's true. It was so lucky. So Shawn Roma's forum, who is now the host of boxes today explained, which is their big daily podcast. So he was originally the host of the show that we decided to, to have on air and he was the best. He's the best dude. Like, I just loved working with him. And we got along really well on the phone. We joked around a bunch. And he's like, hey, like, I feel like we have a really good rapport. Maybe you should be on the air with me because I was his producer. I was like, Oh, you mean like once in a while. He's like, no, like, co host the show. I was like, I don't think I can do that. Like you're already hosting the show. And what do I do? Like, just go ask my boss's if I can also host it. He's like, yeah, just go ask them. And then it took me about three days where I was like, I just can't, I can't do Can I do that? And I hadn't really even thought about myself as a host before. So but then I went and asked, and they're like, Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's try and see what happens. And it really, really worked. Because we I think we had fun working together. I think that like showed on air. Yeah. And so yeah, so we work together for a while. And then he went on to W NYC stuff. And then Matt Galloway joined the show and the great Unknown Speaker 7:04 Matt Galloway, Unknown Speaker 7:06 which was, which was when they told me who my next co host was, I was like, Are you serious? Unknown Speaker 7:12 Well, it just amazing, you know, how you kind of career, your whole career trajectory can just change like that. Unknown Speaker 7:18 Yeah, you know, what it really was, I was so surprised in like, a positive way. And I didn't think that the changes or opportunities happened that way I thought you'd like had a plan work towards and then it worked out or didn't work out. But I wasn't expecting to kind of be surprised by left field. Careers worked that way. But I guess they do a lot. I just didn't really thought about it before. Unknown Speaker 7:43 Yeah. Well, speaking of careers, and then this podcast really is about helping aspiring journalists, young journalists make inroads in their careers. A big theme of this podcast is to ask professional journalists, this particular question, what do you know, now that you wish you knew when you were first getting started? So I'm going to pose a question to you what do you know, now that you wish you knew when you were first getting started? Unknown Speaker 8:05 I wish that I had known how important it was to network. And also that networking? Isn't this horrible, cheesy, terrible thing that makes you kind of, you know, not sincere? Because I had this idea of what networking was. And I always thought, I don't want to do that. Unknown Speaker 8:28 What do you think you had that idea? In your head? Unknown Speaker 8:31 I don't know. Like, I think, um, I think you think of networking, and you think of networking events for I don't know, like sales or whatever. And you just imagine people trading business cards and being and like meeting each other to get something out of the relationship. Do you know what I mean? It seems like you're not meeting someone on a human level. I've always thought of it as being opportunistic. And so it's not something I ever want to have. And also, I'm kind of shy, like, even though I guess I don't seem that shy, but I do. I really did not like talking to strangers unless I was interviewing them. Yeah. And I didn't like approaching people. And it just seemed like something I did not want to do. Unknown Speaker 9:11 So I guess take me back to one of your kind of earlier networking experiences. I mean, was there anything that happened that you look back on it now? And you're like, really wish I could take that back? Unknown Speaker 9:24 Yeah. So basically, I I came to Toronto twice. The first time I came to Toronto, I was working as a producer at front making documentaries. And I really kept to myself, like just like really focused on the work, really was interested in editing and just kind of focused on doing that. didn't meet anyone from outside the show. And then one day I was on contract. I there was a big meeting and we went down and we found out that because of the economy and budget cuts out front had been canceled. And then obviously, I was just going to work out the rest of my contract and then if the show was canceled, they weren't gonna hire me again. So, but I didn't know anyone else in the building, and one of my mentors from the building at the time told me, you know, now's a really good time for these next few weeks, you're here to go meet other people and get other opportunities in the building. So you can stay, you know, the CBC, and I was so just opposed and nervous about networking, that I didn't do it. And I thought, you know, what, something will just work out, you know, my work will speak for itself. But of course, it didn't. And then I just, my contract ended, and I was unemployed for a while, you know, for a few months. And that's when I decided to really learn about networking, because I did not heed good advice, and it did not pay off. Unknown Speaker 10:44 Wow. So you, you actually then started taking networking a bit more seriously, what did you how did this How did you learn then to network better or more effectively, Unknown Speaker 10:55 I kind of realized that. Because before I worked in radio, I was a musician. And I, the next job I got well, while I had left, when I was at the CDC for that short period was in the music industry. And what I did basically was I wrote all my friends and said, Oh, this crazy thing happened, I'm not working right now. Do you know of anything like is anything happening? And then I realized I was networking, and I was networking already in music. So networking isn't this superficial thing you do just to get a job, it's basically just making real connections with people who you think are doing interesting things, getting to know them and interacting with them on a human level, you know, and so and once I realized that, it was that because I like making friends, like, I like meeting people, I like getting to know them. If that is networking, then that's something I can get behind and can enjoy. I just kind of had to change the framing of it for myself. And then it really worked. And then after that, I, you know, after I figured that out, I the whole time after I left the CBC, I was employed the entire time, like working music industry through different networking things. And then once I got back in, I got to do really interesting projects. And I could get back into the CBC kind of through that same skill set that I learned, Unknown Speaker 12:10 right, and I guess since then, I mean, so the kind of networking you're talking about, I think, you know, really meeting people in real life, getting to know them, which is a really important part of the game. So since then, you know, how has maybe social media or technology kind of changed the way you've approached networking? Unknown Speaker 12:29 hugely, like, I use Facebook a lot. Actually, like, in that period, when I when I was getting a job in music industry, I was through Facebook, I just kind of Facebook message some friends. And that's how I, that's how I found out where there was work or who might know of work. And, yeah, it's like, once you make a connection, like, once you meet someone you genuinely like, and you have things in common and you in your industry, if you enjoy talking to, I would just add them to Facebook or Twitter, and then you just kind of keep in touch organically or you see what they're up to. And then they just become someone in your world. You know, and it's not, it's not so deliberate, or it's not so deliberate or, or with a goal in mind. It's not that you want something out of them. And actually, in fact, what I enjoy once if you're doing networking was is sometimes I can help people to or maybe I have something that they're interested in, and then it just becomes kind of a network of people you like in your life, in your work life. Unknown Speaker 13:26 That's an interesting thing. So you kind of went out of your way to tell people about, I guess, positions that opened up or other opportunities, I still Unknown Speaker 13:33 do that too, when I hear something anywhere in the media industry, because once you work here, you you know about things, and sometimes the word doesn't get out easily. So I let as many people know as I can, especially people who are kind of outside of the media network. You know, I kind of let people know what what's happening. And if I if I hear something that's a great match for someone, I'll send them an email and let them know, like, Hey, I think this job is really great for you. Unknown Speaker 14:02 What's your advice to people about approaching somebody you've never met before? Maybe someone that you respect their work and perhaps admire, but you've never had any contact with them before? And maybe you're naturally a bit of a shy person a bit nervous. What What advice would you have for people that that do want to make a connection to someone they've never encountered before? Unknown Speaker 14:24 Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is to, it's tough. I mean, that's like one of the hardest things to do. But I think to just be really honest, and send a short, succinct email, probably because whoever you're trying to reach out to, they're probably really busy. And most people just skim emails, especially it's from somebody they don't know. And kind of get to the point quickly and just say, you know, hey, blank, I am a big fan of your work. I really liked blah, blah, blah. I'm really interested in getting into blank industry. I was just wondering if you had five minutes for a coffee, I'd love to buy you coffee and just talk for, you know, to just find out what you're taking On this Yeah. And then either they answer you or they don't. But if they do, that's amazing. And you can learn something. And if they don't, then that's fine. And the other thing is when you sit down, the thing isn't to ask them like how to like, what's the job? What job can I get right now it's more to find out what their experiences, what advice they have. And you know, just to find out what they know. And I think by doing that, and creating kind of more of an informational relationship, rather than I want something from your relationship, I think that's what makes a big difference. Unknown Speaker 15:33 How's that working change for you now that you've got a much more significant personal brand than before? I mean, you know, you're known as a host, and you're being very modest. You know, you're you're very much a known public quantity now, you know, much more so than before. Unknown Speaker 15:50 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So Unknown Speaker 15:51 has this changed? I guess, your your networking or the type of networking you do? Unknown Speaker 15:57 Oh, yeah. I mean, I think I have a lot more coffee meetings with students and people who are interested in the in the industry. And so I spend a lot more time and kind of, yeah, I spend a lot more time speaking to students or people who are kind of coming into the CBC are starting off at the CBC. Just because it's especially because of the experience I had, where I made a lot of not great choices. It's I like to talk to people Unknown Speaker 16:25 make good choices, good choices. Unknown Speaker 16:29 Although I mean, whatever, it still works out, right. And that's the only thing is if you make a bad choice, you make a bad choice, and you move on from that you learn. Yeah, but, you know, but I guess it's just changed. Because now, while there's still people I want to get advice from and whose opinion I asked for all the time, you know, there's a lot of people who I want to learn from, I'm also on the other end, more able to kind of connect with people and share information that I have. So I guess that's how it's changed is it's kind of more of a two way street now. Yeah, before I just needed so much Unknown Speaker 16:58 that people are looking for you for mentorship now seeing the your career path, which is interesting, because I'm going to ask you, in kind of those meetings with with younger journalists and aspiring journalists, um, you know, have, you know, identify any kind of really common mistakes they make when when they're approaching people or networking? Unknown Speaker 17:15 You know, what is I actually see a lot of young journalists, and I'm so impressed at how much better they are at it than I was. Like, I get so many emails where people like, Hey, could I just have a quick coffee meeting and ask a lot of questions about what we do in the show. And they, they're really good at it. The one the one mistake, though. It's not a mistake, actually. But but something that I think people could be aware of is that a lot of people approached the meetings from, from their perspective, from from what they want to to do, and what their what their dream job is, which I think is important to let whoever you're talking to your mentor, know that that's what where you want to get what you want to be, but they're not flexible as into how to get there. Like some people just, that's what they want. And they, they just want to know how to get that and aren't open to other pathways or are, aren't thinking about that maybe it might take a few years and other jobs to like arrive at that point of what they what they eventually want to get to is their dream job. So I think it's just to have like, an open mind and be willing to, to be open, be open to other pathways to what you want. Unknown Speaker 18:28 That sounds to me, like you're really suggesting for people to take a very kind of collaborative approach to to networking. Yes. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 18:35 Yeah. Cuz it's just like, I mean, I know it's, it's weird. Like, maybe this is not a good way to think about it. But just think about it as work friends, like work friendships. So you've worked friendships where you are actually good friends with people, and then you have kind of work acquaintances. And I think networking is like those work acquaintances, but I just sort of think of them as, as friendship. Unknown Speaker 18:57 Well, you're also like, one of the friendliest people alive. And things I'm guessing there are other you know, people in your position or level that that aren't quite so receptive to perhaps meeting with with, you know, younger people that their time is busy and everything like that. I mean, yeah, Unknown Speaker 19:15 I think a lot of people do though, that's what really surprised me actually is, it's a lot of my colleagues here anyway, are always busy, like meeting with with, that's a thing as I think people like to. Also people like to talk about themselves. They like to talk about their experiences, like people love that stuff. People love when people ask questions about them. That's a universal human truth. So if you are meeting with someone, and you're asking them information about their industry, I mean, they're gonna feel good about that. I mean, chances are high that they're gonna say yes, and you'll be able to get something useful out of that conversation. Unknown Speaker 19:48 So you're telling people don't be intimidated, you know, to the point where you're not reaching out to people? Unknown Speaker 19:53 No, you shouldn't. I mean, yeah, don't and the thing is like, I would say, don't be intimidated. Not Reach out to people at all. Because chances are, somebody will say yes. But also don't be offended if they say no. And it's probably not even that they don't want to meet with you, but probably that they just have so many commitments and emails that it they just can't keep on top of it is probably why it probably has nothing to do with you personally. So never take it personally, if they say no, or if they don't answer. But knowing that reach out to a bunch of people, because it's a numbers game, you know, it's Unknown Speaker 20:27 a numbers game, somebody Unknown Speaker 20:27 who's gonna probably get back to you. Unknown Speaker 20:29 Yeah. And we've been talking a lot about reaching out kind of to individuals that you may have in mind. But I'm sure you've met a lot of people through conferences, through conventions through those things, they have any tips about when we were kind of, in a in a bigger space with lots of people, and maybe can be a bit overwhelming, you have any suggestions on how to approach that Unknown Speaker 20:49 I have so many suggestions, because at some, I'm not a very organized person sometimes. So when I meet amazing people, I'll just like kind of get caught up in other projects and forget, the follow up is amazing. So if you have a great conversation with someone, and there's like a question that you're supposed to answer, you're supposed to send them a link to something, do it right away, do it that night, when you get back to your hotel room, or else, you may never do it at all. So don't play hard to get don't play hard to get. And also when other people follow up with you like answer right away. Just like, just make sure that if if you have a connection, like reinforce it pretty quickly, immediately after, and then add somebody into like passive communication, if you can. So that means add them, follow them on Twitter, follow them on Facebook, so that they're always sort of in your periphery, and you don't forget that they exist. Because that's what happens is sometimes you meet someone amazing at a conference, it's like one day long. And then five years later, you could use some of the knowledge that person has, but you don't remember the things this but if you have been seeing them on Facebook sort of in passing or Instagram for the past five years, then you remember them. Unknown Speaker 22:01 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, conferences are kind of a strange thing. It's almost like, you feel like sometimes you're chatting someone at a bar almost. Yeah. Cuz that the environment is kind of kind of kind of like that. Yeah. Yeah. I Unknown Speaker 22:15 think it's more like a summer camp Unknown Speaker 22:16 more of a summer camp. Yeah, you're right, right. Unknown Speaker 22:18 Because it's like, you go there and like at the beginning are super awkward, right? You make your camp friends. And then you sort of like, hang out with your camp friends the whole time. And then at the end, you're like, sad to say goodbye. Cuz you've had so much fun together. Unknown Speaker 22:30 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. So do you have a good opening line for for first day of camp? Unknown Speaker 22:36 That's a good question. Yeah. So the other was like the cold approach. You got it? conferences, because I've gotten a lot of conferences alone. And so when you're there alone, yeah, you've got to walk up to people, so you don't feel really awkward. So you just I just walk up and I'm like, Oh, hey, uh, what's your connection to blah, blah. So I'd be like, Oh, hey, what are you doing digital journalism, you know, just ask them about why they're there. Basically, that's like, why are you here? Unknown Speaker 23:03 What is the kind of essential question any kind of reporter would ask? Unknown Speaker 23:07 Mm hmm. Yeah. But once you start a conversation, like, once you open it, then then it's easy. Unknown Speaker 23:12 Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it gets, it's really important for you to just ask the question, because not asking is not going to get you very far. Unknown Speaker 23:21 It'll get you literally nowhere. Unknown Speaker 23:25 This is so much fun. Okay. Do you have any other tips or suggestions that may have crossed your mind? You know, if you're speaking to aspiring reporters, people who are getting into, hopefully, what's gonna be a long career? Any suggestions for them? Unknown Speaker 23:41 It's a great question. Um, so many, I mean, if you can focus on the things that interest you most like keep working, like do the work you need to do I mean, it's very rare, you'll get to do exactly what you want to do. So kind of do the work you have to do. But when you have the opportunity, do the work you are really interested in because these little contracts we do these like short projects we do. The some of them becomes your career. So you know, if you end up doing a lot of digital projects in seven years, you're a digital expert. If you end up doing a lot of long form interviews, and seven years, you're a great interviewer. So the small choices you make build up into a big career. So sometimes you aren't always going to get to make the choice. You want to do the thing you want because we need to pay our rent and live. That's a reality in this industry. So of course, like that comes first but within that world, try to make space for the things you love so you can move closer to where you want to end up. The other thing is sometimes you end up in a job that's similar to what you like or sort of what you like, but maybe not exactly what you want to be doing. You can there there are ways to sort of like make a job into something you love. I was just this is something I learned at an Other conference but something that I've also seen people do, where say you're like a just a reporter in a newsroom, you're like, just doing daily reporting. You really want to be an investigative reporter. If you kind of spend a few evenings at home, finding a really interesting idea for a story, and then over the next few weeks work on it until you actually have a story. And then you take that to your boss, and say, Hey, I just need one more day to work on this. Would you like the story? Of course, they're gonna say yes. And then you do that a few more times. And then you become more valuable as an investigative reporter, then, then, like a daily reporter, and then eventually, maybe that becomes your job. So you can change a job you have into a job you want, sometimes in some circumstances. But so that's also something to consider if you're not where you want to be immediately. Patience, patience, and cutting. Unknown Speaker 25:55 So you have a very cool gig right now. Yeah, I love it. It's great. But where do you think you'd like to see yourself in the future? Ah, Unknown Speaker 26:07 that's such a good question. It's when I asked myself a lot. Yeah, I'm really interested. I'm really interested in the podcasting industry and the audio industry in general. Like where it's going, it's changing so fast. It's so exciting right now. Because there's all this new technology. It's so interesting to see the different ways people are interacting with audio. So I just kind of want to stay in that world. But the hosting thing was so surprising and fun, and I love it so much. Yeah, I'd like to sort of explore that more to you. Unknown Speaker 26:37 Well, and you're absolutely amazing at it. And thank you so much for sharing all your insight with us today. I really had a great conversation. Thanks so much. Unknown Speaker 26:44 Thanks for having me. This was so fun. Unknown Speaker 26:47 Once again, that was Lindsay Michael co host of CBC radio's podcast playlist, thanks to her and to our producer, Nicole nado, as well as our partners at j source. And thank you for joining us. Until next time,