Adrian Ma 0:05 Hello there, and welcome to the very first episode of working media. This is a new podcast series that explores some of the challenges and issues facing journalists, journalism students and people working in the world of news media. My name is Adrian Ma. And I'll be hosting this series in partnership with J source the English language portal for the Canadian journalism project. I'm a journalism professor at Ryerson University in Toronto, Ontario. I'm also a former j school student, and I've worked as a professional journalist for 12 years. The inspiration for this series came from realizing that nearly everyone in the news business I've ever met and talked to have had these incredibly unique journeys in their careers, and variably. As we chat, someone always goes, I really wish I knew this when I got my star. So that's what this series is about. It's about talking to professional journalists and finding out what they know now that they wish they knew back then. And maybe we can gain some insight, some wisdom, some different ideas about our own aspirations and paths in this business. My guest on this episode of working media is Karen K. Ho. Karen is a reporter that has worked at the Globe and Mail, Northern New services and the Business News Network among many other places. She is currently at Columbia University pursuing a master's degree in Business and Economics. But he's also researching and reading about diversity, race and culture issues that she really cares deeply about. Karen is also well known for the investigative piece, Jennifer pan's revenge, which she wrote for Toronto life and was published in 2015. It's the riveting story about a young Asian Canadian woman who goes from being a straight A golden child to plotting her own parents murder. In our conversation, Karen talks about her personal connection to the story, and how she tackled the major investigative feature without ever having any investigative experience. Without further ado, here's my chat with Karen kaiho. Hope you enjoy. Karen K. Ho. Thank you so much for joining us today. And where did you fly from? I flew in from New York City, where you are currently a delacourt fellow at the company. You should be really proud of that. Karen K. Ho 2:00 Yeah, I worked. I remember seeing the job posting and being like, Who do I have to kill to get this job because it's really unusual to get a full time job analyzing and reporting on media. I mean, in Canada, there are very few positions, full time positions to do that. And so the idea that there is a special fellowship that's decently paid, you know, comes with benefits within the institution of Columbia, it it seems like an incredible opportunity, especially for someone like me, who had gotten a taste of writing for magazines, and the depth that you're allowed to go into in a way that you can't really with newspapers or even online. Yeah. And so I applied for the job. And it happened right after Colombia's job fair. And I was already in the midst of negotiations and discussions with a couple of other companies I was, I was actually considering moving to Hong Kong for a job. Yeah, a business reporting job, that would have paid a lot of money, and would have had a totally different set of opportunities. Yeah. And I just remember talking to friends in the industry, and they were like, this is, you know, this is the job for you. You've been thinking about this topic for a long time. And it would end and you'll make a little bit less money, but you're gonna have so much more fun. And it's going to give you the opportunity to write about things. And think about things that you've only been able to do really on Twitter or for fun. Adrian Ma 3:37 Yeah. And something that's very important to you and and what you've been reading and researching a lot about is is diversity in media and diversity in newsrooms. Can you talk a little bit about what you've been finding with that? Karen K. Ho 3:50 So there is a lot more statistical data in the United States about the situation regarding minorities and women, both at the leadership level at the general newsroom level. And also there's a distinction for online only news outlets like Fox or Huffington Post. And that gives you a much more accurate picture about the gaps and also any sort of incremental progress or losses in between years. I think you it's, it's difficult, knowing how unusual it is for minorities, women still in many American newsrooms, but at least there's a measurement of transparency about how little work has been done to improve the situation, or where, which places are actually making the most efforts to actively change the situation. And I think the reason why diversity is a huge issue for me is I remember still being a student and going to conferences, and I remember the moment I I saw Jan Wong and being on board as speakers and there Remember the first conference I went to, I swear to God, there were less than a dozen people of color visible people of color among students and speakers, student delegates and speakers. And I just thought it was really hard. But seeing in ingen, as speakers, it was a huge deal for me, because it made it feel possible that I could be like them one day, and, and I remember the impression of like, meeting them, hearing their experiences, learning what we had in common, and, and their words of advice or encouragement, and, and I still am in touch with him to this day. And, you know, that makes a huge impression that that moment is something I think about a lot. And I know that I can, like that kind of level of impact. And I think about that a lot, I think about that impact, and what it can do for other women of color, other journalists of color and other young women. And I take that responsibility really seriously. Now. Adrian Ma 6:06 Let's talk about your background, because that obviously has a huge has had a huge influence on why you've ended up pursuing journalism and why you feel so strongly about this. Can you maybe take us back to the beginning where you grew up in, you know, when when you really started feeling like, you know, journalism was a career path that you wanted to pursue. Karen K. Ho 6:22 So I grew up in Scarborough. I've been born and raised in Toronto my entire life. Yeah, I started my high school student paper in a Catholic school. That was that, uh, he had a huge arts focus, you know, you could learn Photoshop and InDesign and photography in like, 10th grade, Adrian Ma 6:42 like college back in like 2001 Karen K. Ho 6:45 sort of in like 2007 or 2008. Wow. I've been shooting digital photography since like, since digital cameras only had one megapixel. So so that was a really great creative school. And I remember the first year I was on the student paper, we won. We had won the best student newspaper in Toronto at the Toronto Star high school newspaper awards. And so we got to go to the printing plant in Vaughan and I got to meet john Hendrick. And, you know, you can meet all these other student journalists. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And then I originally dreamed of becoming an Imagineer. I wanted to design Disney. Yeah, I wanted to design roller coasters for I've been to Disney World. 13 times, Adrian Ma 7:32 you're not gonna believe I am absolutely obsessed with Disney Imagineers and all the user experience stuff. So into that, Karen K. Ho 7:41 I think it's a really incredible thing to mix science and art. Yeah, think about the experience of the user. And sort of, you know, it's a really incredible thing to go and, and go to it regularly, and then be like, Oh, you can actually have a job like this is this can be your job for the future. And unfortunately, I had a terrible high school physics teacher, okay. And so I dropped physics in high school, and I was like, What am I going to take instead? And so I took journalism, Adrian Ma 8:12 UTI journalism in high school. I did. Okay, that's not that's not a subject. I think it's available at a lot of high schools in Ontario. Karen K. Ho 8:20 My high school was really unusual. Like I said, you could learn college level, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign. And so I was playing around with InDesign for three or four years before going into j school at the University of Toronto, Scarborough. And I did a lot of work at the University of Toronto's student newspaper, the varsity, I was their satellite, campus bureau chief, which was really hard, covering a 10,000 students, suburban campus, by yourself, it's like, it's like covering a small town and also taking photos. And back then we publish twice a week. So you were racing to be the Toronto Star, the National Post of the Globe and Mail sometimes for stories. Adrian Ma 9:05 Yeah. In the middle of all that, and I think if I if I am correct in this, you were also around that time working in Client Services at BMO Bank of Montreal, Karen K. Ho 9:16 I was Yeah, I had a part time job at the Bank of Montreal, which was really funny, because a lot of my customers were like, are you in management? Are you in a business? Are you in economics? I was like, No, I'm a journalism student. Yeah. And, and the funny thing I loved about that job is it enabled me to learn and practice another language, which is Cantonese. And it's incredibly useful sort of in the way that like call center jobs are really useful, in that it forces you to learn how to gain someone's trust in 30 seconds or less. Because you have you know, you're dealing with in some cases, like the life savings or mortgage or a client or you're giving them advice about like why it would be actually in their best interest to Sign up for a credit card or consolidate loans or debt. And, and then I was, I was terrible at selling credit cards, but I was really good at connecting to people in a very short amount of time. And then it also forces you to sort of be efficient and think about processes. And so I learned to work with lots of different kinds of people, lots of different income backgrounds. And it was a really good experience for me, and it helped me save a lot of money while I was in school. Adrian Ma 10:31 But, you know, did you have an interest in financial journalism before that point? or What did you What was it while working at the bank, really developed an interest in reporting news and stories about business and finance. Karen K. Ho 10:44 I remember the exact moment when I got hooked on business journalism, I took a seminar, I think it was at a CH a conference with Kelly Tohill, who is the director of the journalism program at King's. And she showed us in the workshop, how to look at financial statements, and see business story ideas, and I got hooked. I remember that moment. And then also, I remember, shortly after the financial crisis, there were a great episode of This American Life called the giant pool of money. And I remember their distinct explanation of this incredibly complicated term, or concept. And, you know, this is before the big short, this is before Young Money by Kevin Roose, before all these sort of books on on the crisis. And I was like, Oh, this is a really assessable way to explain like this huge global reaching event, in a way that's like, easy to understand, and directly explains what the impact is, on people who think they're totally you know, they don't have investments, they don't have money in the stock market, like, why is it going to change your life. And I was like, Oh, you know, writing about money, you get to write about everything, because everything has to do with money. And so, as soon as that light bulb went off, I was like, how I want to be a business journalist. And then it was like figuring out how to do it. But it took me a while, like, my first job out of undergrad was not in journalism, it was in communications at the University of Toronto, Scarborough. And I got really lucky in that, my editor, there had been a freelance journalist for 10 years. And he was like, Oh, you really want to be a reporter? It's, it was like one of those things. I was like, if I don't do this, I had done really well, you know, in a couple of journalism classes. And I had really got the bug at the varsity, you know, writing about student finances and or how the university spent money on things like renovations. And, and I was like, if I and then I met Joe Sacco, the great graphic journalist on a talk. And he's like, if you're in a job, you know, no matter how much they're paying you, if it's something that doesn't inspire you, it can be like the worst thing imaginable. And I was just like, Oh, I want to be a reporter. If I don't try to be a reporter, I'm going to wonder about it for the rest of my life. Even though, you know, as a children of immigrants, I had this great job with a pension and benefits and, and I knew if I stayed at the university, I would be able to like, save for the future and everything like that. I was like, if I don't try this, I'm going to really regret it. Adrian Ma 13:25 So you decided that you kind of fall in love with business journalism, you end up working at the financial post, you end up working at Business News Network. And you once mentioned to me that you believe that business reporting and learning how to do it well, is a massively valuable skill to any kind of reporting. Can you can you talk a little bit more about why you think that Karen K. Ho 13:48 I love telling people how much everything has to do with money. I think it's really underrated, whether you're interested in fashion, or sports or travel, City Hall, government, national security, all of those have huge financial implications. They're all businesses and corporations that benefit from losses or gains, changes in exchange rates, trade deals, I think it's incredibly valuable thing. We know that business journalism is consistently an area of the industry that where salaries are higher, it does take specialized skills, but those skills are relevant. Because accounting, I think, sounds really dry sometimes but knowing, you know, everyone has a smartphone. So like knowing if a company has a lot of old inventory, that's really bad. But if you also have a company that has a lot of inventory in advance of, say, the Christmas holiday season, that's good. That means be prepared for the number of orders and that could be anything from clothes to coffee, to or It can be really bad. Like, if you have a mild winter, you know, a lot of coats, that company is going to be in for a world of trouble. And then that affects everything from like, one department store brand to like, the mall chain to like a country that has a lot of real estate. And then there's like stocks or real estate investment trusts that are invested in those malls. It has a huge trickle down effect. And it's like, it's your mom's retirement fund, heavily invested in those real estate investment trusts. This is like a huge trickle down. And every event, I think, I really believe, can benefit from like, ability to like, it's one thing to listen to the story that you're being given, like in a press release, it's another thing to be like, give me the raw data, which is your financial statements, your balance sheets, I want it and like I said, Every company has it like unless it's really private, like Tesla or SpaceX are. But so many publicly listed companies, right, like this information, they are obligated to disclose it, and being able to go in there and like, figure out what's the hidden story that they're not telling you directly, or that nobody else can really figure out and understand. That gives you an edge, and then always interested in helping people figure out what the edge is not just because there's enough for everyone, I don't feel like I'm like, I'm not just to helping grow my own competition, but I think it helps the general public so much that the information they're they're being given is from like, someone who's taken an extra look, is a little bit cynical. And and because we've known that corporations lie to us over and over again, or haven't told us the whole story. So like, why would I not? and empower, you know, young people to say, your favorite brand, Nike, you know, like, they have a lot of debt or like, what does that mean in the future? Like? Or you're like, why is a deal? that relies on a lot of debt? Why is it going to be a bad thing in the next like, two years? I think those are really, really important skills. And, and also, I think they're really important in a place where you're seeing a lot of layoffs, right? Like no one wants to give to the person who knows how to look at this kind of stuff. It's so incredibly specialized. And we know it brings an advertiser's like, like business sections are still great specialized places that you can do specialty packages that bringing an ad money. And also, business people want to get into these pages, you know, for the publicity for what it means for the company, you know, every new Kickstarter or young company they advertise on their websites. This is how much press we're doing. And so the business press, you need people who are cynical, who are not just saying this is a great new product, it's like, you know, the best business stories are like, this has been hyped up forever. And here's why it might fail. Look at what happened with Snapchat. Adrian Ma 18:02 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, pursuing business journalism. And one of the themes of this podcast is to bring up ideas and and talk about things that you maybe wish you knew heading into, you know, careers in journalism careers in business reporting. So you know, is there anything you know, now that you wish you knew heading into a career in business journalism that may be of use to students that are interested in business reporting, Karen K. Ho 18:31 I wish I had looked into it specialty networking much earlier in my career, I had only joined the Asian American journalists Association after I had been laid off from your Mississauga business and started Media Group when I was 25. I am always jealous of like high school and college students who join save you, or the Society of Professional Journalists, the online news association or the National Institute for computer assisted reporting nucar I'm always incredibly jealous and excited to see those students because they're going to access to resources, and networks and people and workshops so much earlier, and that they can benefit from those resources much earlier in their careers. It's a huge thing to find your tribe, and really be able to specialize and succeed much faster. Or, you know, you're it's, it's so much more affordable when you're a student to join these organizations and apply for scholarships to go to these conferences. You literally can meet people who will change your life will hire you for future jobs or internships. give you opportunities to partner on projects, or, or in some cases, just be context that you'll want to turn to for advice. Friendship in the future. One thing I did do, right, but I didn't specialize in business journalists specifically was, I worked really hard on Twitter, I went, I use Twitter a lot more than even LinkedIn, to network I, I've become, like, friends in all sense, even if I haven't met some of these people in real life, you know, people I talked to regularly, but not specifically in business, but across like, different beats. And I'm only starting to really connect to many more business journalists on Twitter. But I think it's everything from Tech, to pop culture to essays, national reporting. And I think it's a really good, it's incredibly helpful for my job right now in covering media, and sort of seeing what everybody's talking about. But I think in terms of, it's always great to see what your peers are reading what they're paying attention to. I recommend also if you're interested in a particular country to follow as many journalists, business or otherwise from that area. Adrian Ma 21:06 Great. Well, right now, to borrow a kind of business return, we're going to pivot the conversation a little bit, because while while you're very well known for business journalism, what you're probably most well known for is a Toronto life investigated feature that you spent a lot of your, your, your career working on. And this is, well, you know, I just want to take take us back in time for a second. It's 2010. And you're pretty much fresh from graduating school fresh from working at the varsity fresh from centennial. You know, you're at work, and the news is on and you hear a name during a breaking news report. Tell me what that name was. Karen K. Ho 21:46 Her name is Jennifer Pan. Adrian Ma 21:48 Yeah. And who's Jennifer Pan? Karen K. Ho 21:49 Jennifer Pan is a young woman at the time, she's 24. She's living in Markham, a suburb north of Toronto. And she's in the news because there has been a home invasion, her a group of attackers has come into her home, and her mother has died in the attack, and her father has been critically injured, and has to be transported to hospital. Adrian Ma 22:18 And you hear this name. And suddenly, there's there's a there's a personal connection there. Can you tell us what that connection was? Karen K. Ho 22:27 Jennifer and I both went to the same high school on the border of Scarborough and Markham. And she was a year older than me, we had many mutual friends. And we both played the same instrument. And so I saw her in the band room quite Adrian Ma 22:42 often. And so what went through your mind when when you saw this news report? Karen K. Ho 22:52 I think like a lot of people, it was shock. It was very clearly a horrific and extremely violent incident that is highly unusual in Canada. And I remember posting on Facebook, in the early days of the platform about my condolences. And if, you know, I saw a lot of people posting on Facebook that I knew from high school. And I just remember feeling like it was incredibly talking. And but at the time, it had been a couple of years from high school. And so he had in and I wasn't very close, I was closer to maybe mutual friends than she was. And I just remember but you know, we were we knew each other enough that I had added her on Facebook and that it was just incredibly sad for everybody to the idea of losing a parent, especially I'm a mother with something that many people could empathize with. And I just said, I think along the lines of you know, if there's anything you need, I'm here to help. Adrian Ma 23:58 But what happened was it eventually became an idea for a story that you took to Toronto life. Karen K. Ho 24:05 So, it was a few months later. The reason why that case stuck out so what happened was, it did not take long after the initial incident in November of 2010. For polices discovered that it was not actually a home invasion. It was a plan to talk. And what had happened was what she was eventually convicted for was hiring three people to come and kill her parents so that she could be with her boyfriend, who I also knew and and use the insurance money to to have a new life away from her parents. What happened was before all this happened before the trial, many years later, when her boyfriend Daniel mom was charged in this brain Or I think in April of 2011, I was still at the University of Toronto in communications. And Daniel and I had had a very close relationship in high school, he had come over to my house every day for almost a year. Despite the, the age gap, the high school I went to was very atypical and that students from different years hung out together quite frequently. And he and two other guys, they were like my older brothers, and he had a very good relationship with my parents. And so I remember being in the office at the University of Toronto, Scarborough when when the news came that Daniel was also being charged. And I said to my editor, oh, you know, like, I knew him. And the idea percolated in my head that maybe it would be worth it to write something. It took a year and a half of workshopping the idea, the initial pitch was going to be that I was going to attend a pre trial motion or hearing, and talk about what it was like, you know, with Twitter, and Facebook, to what is it like to encounter someone that you think you knew really well, and that you stay in touch with through digital means and see them again? And what is that like? And I figured it would be in front of book 1000 word piece. I'd even take in freelance classes here at The Chang School for Continuing Studies and other classes to workshop the piece over a period of about a year and a half. Finally, regular Toronto live contributors McCune brown and Denise aka soon we're like you have a great story. Oh, and also Edward Keenan, they said you have a great story, you can stop working on this pitch, you know, you can tell this is the editor Mark pupo was their editor and they said you can email him tell him that you have run this pitch by us that we give you our encouragement and and review and that that we think that Toronto life will buy it. And actually it was Tabitha southie, who I saw at a party and I was telling her about this idea. You know, I've been talking about it for a while. And she said don't pitch it to like a smaller magazine pitch it to the walrus eternal life. Like it deserves a national magazine with fact checking resources. And so finally, when I sent it to mark, I remember the email very distinctly. And we met a couple times and he's like, okay, I don't want you to just cover a hearing or emotion. I want you to cover up the whole trial. And I was I said, Okay, and then I was like, I think it was more like I guess. And I remember getting the contract, and sort of being like, Oh, no, or or thinking maybe I can quit later. Like if it's really too much. But it was one of those things that I had. I had heard it's like Kinsey, which is a famous consulting company, that the trick to consulting is saying yes, and then figuring it out later, and going to the right people and figuring it out. Because Adrian Ma 28:04 You hadn't done much investigative or crime work up until this point, right? Karen K. Ho 28:08 I'd never done any crime or investing. You know, crime investigative work. I had never even written for a magazine before. Adrian Ma 28:14 Before this before you end up working on a murder investigation piece. Karen K. Ho 28:18 Yes. Wow. Adrian Ma 28:21 So but you are a go getter? So you said Yeah, I am. I'm gonna I'm gonna see where this goes. I'm sure. Did you ever anticipate that this would take up three and a half years of your life? Karen K. Ho 28:34 No, I don't think anyone ever does. It's, it's like building a house. If, if people knew how hard it is, I mean, there's, there's reading about building a house, right? And then there's watching YouTube videos and hearing advice. But until you're like, digging out a foundation, or you know, making mistakes and having to go back to the store, buy wood because you cut it the wrong size. You really don't know what you've gotten into. And, and I think, at the time when I was really in the middle of it, you know, after the first couple of drives to the new market courthouse, or or the jail, you know, a lot of this travel I was paying out of my own pocket for years. Research. Yeah, it's so for so the thing about your first piece for many places is you have to write it on spec, essentially, there's no upfront fund to pay for things like court documents or gas. And, and, you know, you really have to justify why they should cover a greater number of expenses. So initially, my budget for expenses was only $300. I think just for the court document to is $1,000. So it's hard to fund a lot of this work and and remember the entire time I'm like writing it in In the midst of doing other jobs, other journalism jobs, so this was like a part time endeavor for three and a half years, Adrian Ma 30:06 you're in your whole time you're in your early, mid 20s. Karen K. Ho 30:10 So I started. I started writing it when I was 26. And I finished it after I turned 29. Adrian Ma 30:23 Right? Yeah. But that Karen K. Ho 30:25 was just the two years after I'd gotten approval from Mark, I had like, the genesis of the idea had started when I was around like 2425. So it was like three and a half years. So like, the only thing I had done longer than this was like going to university. Adrian Ma 30:39 That's a big commitment. Karen K. Ho 30:41 Yeah, I didn't know it was at the time when I signed up for it. But I just knew that if I didn't write this story, even with, you know, having never done magazine, never done investigative, never going to crime. And like, the longest thing I'd written was maybe like 1600 words, was like, if I didn't tell us perspective, I knew I would wonder about it for the rest of my life. And I knew that there was an appetite for these kinds of stories, because I had read j Caspian kings account in 2013, about the oil coast school shooting in California. And he had this amazing way of tying in his own reflections on his Korean identity, and whether or not it had contributed to the violence that the person who had carried out the mask or had felt. And and so I knew that there is a template for when you're very close to a story, how do you tie your experience or your background into that? And I remember reading it, and then rereading it. You know, you never know when you're reading great, long form, how will be useful to you in the future. But sometimes it is, you can, there's a straight line between two stories. There would also have been accounts I'd seen of journalists who had known the family behind the Boston bombing. And so I definitely know there's always an appetite for like people who are close to like a national headlines story. I just didn't think that I would be contributing to that cannon. And that there would be such a huge interest in it after the story came out, quite honestly. Adrian Ma 32:19 Well, in it really is one of the most compelling aspects of the whole piece, you know, it's not just a piece about, you know, linking together a murder plot and seeing how it all happened. It's about the influences of culture and family and community. And you are really able to help tell that side of the story. But when did you decide that needed to happen that that your kind of voice and your experiences needed to be part of the frame? Karen K. Ho 32:47 The honest answer is I didn't, it was my editor. Yeah. I was talking to him about I think I was trying to basically explain in words, why I felt a level of empathy for Jennifer, from my own background, and my own experience with a parent that there was a feeling of disappointment in your life choices, or in your gender, and, or even in the way that you are raised. And that caught that cultural disconnect between a way that is entirely condoned among his siblings and his peers. And in a way that's really harsh in a country like Canada. And and when I was explaining it to him, he's like, you have to put this into the story. And I think we were like three or four drafts into this in into rewrites, and then editing. And I was really nervous, because as a reporter, I am always really hesitant to put myself in the story, like I had been blogging since I was like 13, or 14, which is very different. But I think it was one thing. He was even I was really hesitant to even report on what I remember about my impressions of Jennifer and like the halls of the high school, because all my journals at the time I was living in Yellowknife. And all of my journals. Were here in Toronto. And so I was like, petrified, you know, you really as a fact checker, you know, as a reporter, you want to back things up, and I had the yearbooks and things but I was, you know, I, I couldn't say with 100% certainty, you know, like, my impressions of her in the hall, even if I could cross corroborate them with like other classmates. And I was really, really nervous, because I didn't want to take away the focus. And then I found out afterwards that everyone said it. It grounded the story and explained why it was the person to write it. Because you know, there were so many other reporters with so many, so much more experience covering this at the time as well. For outlets like the national press, To the Toronto Star. Adrian Ma 35:02 You know, I think it raises a really interesting point is that, you know, as a journalism professor and someone who's been, you know, part of, you know, working with editors and and other senior editors, we often challenge students, young journalists, we say to them, go for, you know, go find big stories, go find stories that aren't run of the mill, and we want to challenge you to put them together, because it's good for your career, right? It's good to land a big story to establish yourself set you apart from other journalists. But I'm wondering about the emotional toll, the emotional repercussions of diving into the deep end like that, which is something that you really did you you didn't have training really, or much experience in crime investigated, but you find yourself in a remarkable circumstance, and you dove head in with a lot of encouragement from editors and things like that. You know, did you struggle emotionally while you put this together? Did you? You know, what one of the most challenging aspects of putting this whole piece together, Karen K. Ho 36:02 There were so many things, it was everything from like the financial cost, it was balancing it literally as a part time job on top of full time jobs that I had to do. Because I, you know, it's incredibly different, difficult to be a full time freelance writer, even if you do a mix of commercial and editorial clients, you know, it's so so balancing this on top of jobs at BNN. Or when I was working in Yellowknife, was really difficult. You know, I wrote the first draft, or maybe two drafts, maybe draft and a half would be what my editor would say, like right before I moved to Yellowknife across the country, I had to pack up all my, you know, I had to move out of my apartment and pack up all my possessions and put things in storage. And then I had to write the other jobs in the midst of like, other moves in Yellowknife, starting a new job being in a new dealing with the culture clash of moving from the biggest city in Canada to like an incredibly small town. And then the content itself was really hard. You know, like listening to the 911 call, I just remember the first time I listened to it, doing it once. And then knowing that I had to listen to it again, for practical purposes, or reporting purposes, and just remembering putting down the computer and like walking outside. Yeah. And then there's the details, right, like, and then having to reread the details over and over again, Adrian Ma 37:31 and reconnect with Daniel's family, right? You went in and interviewed them and everything, or tried to. Karen K. Ho 37:39 That was really hard, like, so the thing that was hard. One thing that was really hard throughout the entire time that I was recording was always never giving myself the confidence to be like, this is the thing that I'm absolutely doing. There was always a part of me that's like, I don't know why I'm doing this. Or I don't feel like I'm the right person to be doing this. Or maybe I will quit or maybe they will find someone else to do this. Or maybe I can like back up at some point. And so people would ask me, they're like, they would see me in court. Daniel's family would see me in court, and they're like, are you writing about this? And my answers would be like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, up until basically, my editor was like, Okay, now it's time like, you have to start doing the draft. Like the trial is finished. I was like, Oh, no, I really, it's too late for me to back out. Adrian Ma 38:23 So do you mean did you feel pressure to do this story? Because you were a young journalist, and you knew this was a good opportunity? Did you feel that pressure to go through the story? Karen K. Ho 38:33 I did not think that at all. Like, and, and the thing about it is I did not put this in the context of like, this will be my big break, right? I and I was like, Oh, you know, it'd be great. If like 70 or 80, maybe 120,000 people read the story, it would be like really cool. I i didn't i really underestimated like the appetite for to crime in the United States around the world. I did not think about, you know, had been a couple of years after Amy Troy's book about Tiger parenting to come out and not john the connection at all. But I did not think at all like I am a young journalist, I need to do this big story. I knew I had been chronically underestimated at many of my jobs. Like I was entry level for like, a couple of years I was just being ground down constantly by coworkers or bosses or, or whatnot. And I there was this voice inside my head that's like you are capable of doing really big things. But I had never drawn a connection between like this sort of project in my pocket. And like the idea that this would be the thing. I just knew that I was like constantly listening to things like This American Life, and long form podcast and reading constantly like reading long form, magazine pieces and newspaper articles like as much as I could. And trying to cobble my own education you'd like going to CGS or art events and coming to Ryerson, for classes, and doing well in these little pockets. It was like I was chipping away at something and not knowing what it was. And then so finally, when I finished the story I had no you know, after you've been edited a couple of times, you're just like, everything I write is terrible, right? Like, it's like red lines, everywhere. And so I had, I didn't think I was a great writer, I people told me that I was insightful. And I knew I had tweeted some stuff that had struck a chord. But there was no indication to me at all that I would like, connect with a huge group of people that it would become like, in any sense of the word like viral in multiple countries, or that I would, I would get any kind of attention. I just, I just had this, I think it's really important for young journalists to have a story, if you're going to do a big story, it's like, what is the story that will keep you interested for a really long time? Like, it has to be something that you care about that like that you're in search of the answer to a question that like matters to you. Because that gives you a window, because it's going to be so hard. Like, it's such a slog, like investigative reporting is, is like, you don't know what the end result is. And so with this, it was just like, I just knew if I didn't try to answer this question of like, because she didn't seem like a person, you know, like, when you read about murders, you think, okay, it was really obvious from when they were young, that there was like, they were unpopular, or whatever. And I was like, there were so many parts of her life that I could see in my own life. And so I think there's a level of expertise and authority that I didn't know I had, when I was explaining the story. Adrian Ma 41:51 Tell me about, I guess the night before it went to print. before it hit newsstands Well, are you thinking it before the story is gonna come out? You know, you invested so many years, your time and really, you know, a really big personal emotional investment and because of just how it tied into your your own life and life experiences. So take take into that night before it comes out. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Karen K. Ho 42:16 It was really hard because I wasn't in Toronto. So I didn't see it, like hit the newsstands. I had to literally have someone take a picture and upload it onto Twitter before I knew it was real. Because otherwise it's like, Yeah, I don't know what I've been emailing. And I, you know, like, it's different when you can see your editor regularly or have coffee, even as a freelancer. But because I was filing from like Yellowknife, I didn't, it took a long time for me to even celebrate it like it took. I think it took even until after I had been interviewed by the Washington Post. And there was literally a new friend and public relations who came up from Toronto, and he's like, this is a really big deal. You need to think about what the next stage of your life is going to be like, and how you're going to use this for that. Because this is a really big deal. And I had no idea because I was separated from my family, and my friends, and all my peers who really understood what a big deal this was. And it took me even a while for to get like print copies. I literally was dating someone at the time. And he flew through the Toronto airport on his way back to Yellowknife. And he picked up two copies for me. And that's when I could be like, Oh, it's a wild thing. But I think it's like I it took me a really long it took me a couple weeks until I was actually at a journalism conference again, the the AJ conference, and I will remember it for the rest of my life. I was in San Francisco. And I was at a mixer the first night. And I had a friend come up to me and she's like, I know he wrote that story. I know that was you. Because by then it had officially gone viral. And in a way that still makes me really emotional. Like, you know, it was I had been interviewed by another young woman who was from Markham, who had just finished at Yale. Her name is Nan Wang. And then she was an intern at the Washington Post. And she's like, this has been all over my Facebook feed. I want to talk to you about it. And I was like, are you like pranking me like, it's a Sunday afternoon. She's calling me in Yellowknife. She found my number. And we talked for an hour and then I see the story. And then it was like the number one story on their website for five days. And their social media people came up to me at the journalism conference was like, we have to talk to you about this story. And I was like, Oh my God. And you know, I became friends with so many people. And so many people came up to me at that journalism conference, because it was just like, it meant so much to them to you know, and everybody thought it was an Asian American story that they kept. I kept having to remind them I was about someone from Toronto or near Toronto. And I just remember my friend at the time who had who's the managing editor of Scientific American, I told him the numbers I had no idea what the numbers meant. And he was like, he's like, these are records Numbers not just for Canada, these are record breaking numbers for the world for web web traffic, views and site. So it was specifically for web traffic. I didn't know newsstand sales. Yeah. But I was lucky enough to be friends with David topping who is the online editor? Yeah. And he was like, yeah, you know, you have an 84% completion rate. And, and, and I think a couple weeks after that journal is going overseas, like you made the million mark. And it was a 10 minutes average read time. Adrian Ma 45:34 Yeah. 10 minutes. Karen K. Ho 45:35 Yeah. That's massive. And so for debut like, yeah, I had no idea. And, you know, I was just, I still felt like a nobody from like the suburbs of Toronto. You know, I had never been on staff at like the CBC, or the Globe and Mail. Yeah. And so the idea that I could have a story like this, Adrian Ma 45:55 Yeah. While you're writing the story, you know, you said this very well, you know, you don't know exactly what you're working on. And you don't even think about how this could be, you know, a big break or whatever. But this, this clearly changed your life. And a lot of ways. Karen K. Ho 46:12 My life is very clearly split between like before and after this story. And it's really validating because I gained a reputation among a lot of people I really respect, like, people I deeply admire in American Canadian journalism, read that story. And I'm still hearing about like, literally, there is a podcast about true crime that featured the story like last week. So like two and a half years later, like people are still talking about it in a way that I didn't proactively reach out to them. I had no idea like, people are actively saying, I heard an excerpt from your story. In this podcast, and I want you to know, because I'm not sure if it's on your radar. And like, I had no idea. Like, I think one of the most incredible things was someone interviewed me, it was for a Vietnamese language publication. So I, I've never been able to find it or read it. But he said, you know, your story makes me reevaluate how I'm parenting my daughter. Wow. And, and I, you know, I never thought that would happen. Like in terms of, like, I just wanted to write the best story I could, like, genuinely, I just wanted to read the best or I could, and I wanted to show people, I wanted to take a step back and show people the story. And I thought, you know, there are so few stories about Asian Canadian culture, written by Asian Canadians and same thing with the United States with Asian Americans, writing about their own people and their own culture. And I was like, Okay, if I get this one shot, I'm just gonna swing as hard as I can. And I made so many mistakes, I thought I would really screwed it up. Like, genuinely, I was like, Toronto, life is never gonna want to work with me again. And what were some of those mistakes that you made? My God, like, there were times where I didn't go to the courthouse, when I should have or I didn't know how expensive court documents were, you know, I felt I felt like, there's no easy way to go to classmates that you haven't seen in 10 years and be like, Hi, I would like to talk to you about that really awkward thing. I know, we haven't talked in a while, you know, like, there's no easy way to do that. There's no no class in journalism school that teaches you how to broach this topic. Keeping track of notes, like I was filling random notebooks and trying to collect all the details or like, I had no accurate filing system for like, interviews or interview notes and keeping track of who was talking to me. And entrepreneur attribution or on the record, I knew, like, like, it was very clear that almost no one wanted to talk to me on the record, about her. But even keeping track of like, all the times I drove to the courthouse or the jail, because it's been years. So like, keeping track of those receipts, you know, by the by at one point, I wish I had taken pictures because they were the Incan start to fade away and so like filing them to Toronto life. And also, I was not better about like asking for more money earlier being like, this is this is like, I'm doing way more work than we ever expected for this project. And I need more money. Or I need to be at work even like, I like the business side of like managing something like that. And I was terrible at tracking time. And, or even like, I didn't know how to build properly. So even though I made the mistake, so the initial contract was, I think, four or 5000 words and I filed more than that. And I only still ask for the amount that was All macaques adjusted for like the higher word count, I only adjusted for the expenses. And I didn't know. And, and part of me was like, Oh, I deserve this last money because I was such a pain to deal with as a writer. And then I found out later, it was like, No, like, I still helped make them money, you know, like, through the traffic through the exposure through like, all this press attention or through. Like, the national magazine awards, like all this stuff, like it's a business and they know working with new writers. That's why they offer you like these conditions when you first start out. And so that was really hard. Adrian Ma 50:41 What was the reaction in the community at home to the channel a feature? When that came out? Karen K. Ho 50:47 My eye doctor read it because his daughter attends the same high school that I went to Yeah. And he didn't connect that I was his client, until I was sitting in his chair and talking to him about how my life had changed. Yeah. It was really, friends who had been watching me report on this story and write it and struggle through it. It was really amazing to hear, they were just like, we have watched Karen work on this. And we know it was gonna be great. And it is, it's, it's like everything that we imagined that it would be, or some of them had seen drafts. And it was almost a validation that they were like, they had been gunning for me for so long. And that was really encouraging. Adrian Ma 51:31 And family react to it, I guess, some of the the revelations that you make in your piece, especially pertaining to to your own experiences. Karen K. Ho 51:42 My mom was really proud,like, so my mom read all my drafts. Yeah, it wasn't a surprise. And then I also my sister helped me factcheck the, the flavor of Doritos and that story. I never heard from my father directly about his reaction to it. I heard from someone else. He didn't know that. That's how I felt about the way that he had parented me. And this is actually the first time I'm talking about that publicly. Like I've talked about it with my friends. It was really validating to hear someone, someone contacted me that had turned me down for an interview, and said that I had done the right thing and how I portrayed the story that was really validating. Yeah. Adrian Ma 52:29 Did you ever hear from Daniel's family about the reaction to the peace? No. Karen K. Ho 52:32 Oh, I didn't hear from Daniel's family. I did hear from a friend of Felix, Jennifer's sister, that they were very upset at how much the story had re-brought media attention onto him and his family, right. And the thing about that is, I didn't push to interview him. his comment was public. And I didn't specify the company that he worked for. But that was information that was easily available online. So it was hard to balance, like, an accurate portrayal of what happened. And you know, the information that was in the court documents, and also the effect on his life that it had, because he had moved significantly farther away to try to get away from this story. Yeah. And that was really hard. And I had a couple conversations with that person, the intermediary of the mutual friend of Felix, is that I think it's very clear that I, like I've purposely not pursued a book deal about this story. I, my intention was never to make money off this story. Like, I never wanted to become famous for this story. I just wanted to write a side of it that I thought would be really illustrative of something that we don't really get to talk about a lot. And she was like, Yeah, but you're still like, hurt him. And I was like, I'm really sorry. But like, I think I did the fairest, most accurate way of talking about like, the effect that had on him without like, I didn't go to the house, you know, I like I did I try not to be intrusive in the way that you often have to when when covering a murder. I tried to be really sensitive as much as possible, in a way that maybe didn't give me the best story, but I think was the best thing to do for it. Adrian Ma 54:33 Is there anything looking back now that you would have done differently when it comes to covering that straight but besides that, you talked about some of the kind of maybe process mistakes that you made, but but in terms of, you know, taking on the story, the people that you talk to the narrative of it, is there anything you do differently in retrospect? Karen K. Ho 54:55 I wish I had driven to the courthouse and covered the verdict when it was delivered. realize that there's something about being there. Like being there. You know, they had been on trial and or in, in custody for months or more than a year. I think there's something about seeing someone's emotional reaction or physical reaction, what they're wearing, like all of these are very specific choices that you make. Yeah. I would have been interested in seeing the reaction from like Danielle's family or Jennifer's family. I know it would have been packed. And then I wish I had taken. I had, I had been much more organized about how are you taking notes. I think, if you're going to be a freelancer, you know, being organized, and having a strategic plan for how you're going to organize things like audio files, or notes, research materials. You know, I heard everything from software like Scrivener to organize that stuff to even keeping track of how much time you're spending on a story. I would, I would caution, young journalists, if you're going to take on a big project like this have, especially for crime, like know that you're gonna have to put a lot of money upfront, like, and then be prepared for like taxes and all that other stuff when it comes in. And then like, asking for advice about like negotiating things for expenses, or like a higher word count? Or like, how many drafts? And how much time is this going to take? Adrian Ma 56:50 So Karen, you went back to New York after the holiday? Where do you see yourself? Would you like to see yourself in your career and next year's you know, what's what's what's kind of next for Karen K. Ho? Karen K. Ho 57:05 I'd really like to continue working in American magazines. It's fun to be the unofficial Canadian correspondent at the Columbia Journalism Review. Yeah. I think people underestimate how many Canadians work in American media or, or their influence, or how much Canadians pay attention to American media and not vice versa. I think there are a lot of opportunities for covering the intersection of business and culture. Like we're starting to see that now with things like Uber, or Bitcoin or you know, everything. Like, really, people really forget about how business affects your day to day life. I think there's a lot of opportunities in the United States for magazine work. But there's also many more places for business journalism. So I mean, I'm going to be thinking about where I'm going to have to apply for because of visa issues. So very soon, I would love to write. Also, like, I'm going to be doing something for GQ soon. Adrian Ma 58:15 And my favorite magazine. Karen K. Ho 58:17 Yeah, I mean, culture reporting is so much fun. I think, like, there has been so much depressing news in the United States about mass shootings and natural disasters and all this stuff in, in political government. But it's fun to think about sports and, and take a critical look at movies. Like, I'm really excited to see the new Star Wars while here in Toronto and, or, like, Why, what makes great TV show different. And so like, that's what I'm going to be working on. I also quite honestly, there was a, there was a man I recently encountered that told me, he tried to dissuade me basically from pitching to a major American magazine. And so my goal always because, and I, you know, like, like, for other I think it was like, particularly restricting, like, as a woman of color, just like the power of spite compels me, right? Because, you know, like, that is like, like, I think it's hard not to think sometimes, like if I was a white male, would have been that dismissive of my ambition. Even with all the signs indicating that I had a much higher sought than even two years ago to to to pitch successfully pitched to this magazine. So a short answer to your question is like, be really ambitious about the ideas and features that I want to publish in American magazines and online outlets. I want to help other you young journalists in Canada who are thinking about going to business journalism or thinking about applying to American Graduate Schools or even who want to learn more about journalism conferences and how to like, invest in their own careers proactively. And then I also think I want to figure out a way to actively get involved in changing the culture regarding diversity and recruitment in both Canada and the United States. I feel like there's only so much I can keep yelling about this. And I really need to figure out how to how to how to help with this change, whether it be an education, whether it be in editorial assignments, or whether it be in meetings with senior staff? I don't, I don't know. I think typically, that'd be called consulting. But I think it's also just like, if there isn't that kind of level of systemic change, like a lot of your students are women and people of color, and it's in. If I want them, to get into museums for the long term to do the work that I think is necessary on both sides of the border, then there has to be much more proactive movement in terms of like, whether it be programs or training to get them to those positions. Adrian Ma 1:01:24 Well, you know, I think I'd love to leave, leave off this podcast with with one kind of idea from you, which is and you You are very invested in trying to empower and encourage and inspire women of color to pursue journalism careers. Is there. One last piece of advice you might have, particularly for these people, to to get where they want to go? Maybe being closer to what what you've achieved in your career, just looking back on your experiences? is there is there one last piece of advice you might have for that group in particular? Karen K. Ho 1:02:03 I think beyond like, really knowing how to use iCal and Google calendar to make the most of your time and the opportunities that you have in places like Ryerson or Columbia, I think it'd be really strategic be like, how am I going to blow the water out of everyone in my competition? Whether it be in your class, whether it be in your age group? You have to say, How am I going to convince the person sitting across from me that I am absolutely the person for the job? And if not, how are they going to regret not hiring me in like two years, I think that's a really, really important thing, it makes you focus so much more about, say the work that you're putting in, where you're putting your time, who you're talking to. And then at the same time, it's also like, you never know what your hobbies are going to contribute to in the long term like, like, also just being curious, like constantly being like, what's the story that I would really love to see? And how quickly can I pitch it? And like thinking about it? And just being like, why am I the only person that should be picked to do this job. It's just like, but at the end of the day, like, especially for women of color, or people of color, like really just a drill it as often as possible. Just be like, why are you the best? And it can be You don't even have like, like I'm willing to work harder. I have the most skills. I surprise people with different languages. You know, like, I'm willing to stick my neck out and I'm willing to move like, what are those things? Everybody has a different deck. What is the best thing about yours? And how can you make them use of it and benefit the person sitting across from you right away. Adrian Ma 1:03:51 Karen K. Ho absolute pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much for coming in. Karen K. Ho 1:03:54 Thanks for having me. Adrian Ma 1:03:57 Once again, our guest on this episode was KarenK. Ho. We wish her well as she completes her master's degree at Columbia and continues her journalism journey. Special thanks to the Ryerson University School of Journalism and j Swiss for their support. And big thanks to our producer Nicole de Donato. We hope you enjoyed the first episode of working media. Talk to you soon.